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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message
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#168640 - 2008-04-27 13:44:00 Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: David Koot]
Stan Offline
Very Adventist


Registered: 2006-09-15
Posts: 6152
Loc: Adventistan
I do not want you to think I am ignoring this.

I am consulting with some trusted advisors, I should have a statement to make in the next day or so.

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#168721 - 2008-04-28 10:37:58 Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: Stan]
Stan Offline
Very Adventist


Registered: 2006-09-15
Posts: 6152
Loc: Adventistan
I have PM'd both of you on this.
_________________________
Stan

Even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

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#343576 - 2010-03-12 12:23:31 Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: A_G_Brito]
FLO Online   content
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2009-10-28
Posts: 62
Loc: Toronto, ON
Great Posts! I agree with Bacchiocchi's intrepretation of the Colossians verse. I also have a similar study in powerpoint form that you can download for free at: http://www.LawInColossians.com/
_________________________
FLO

www.Yah-Tube.com

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#363025 - 2010-05-31 22:16:42 Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: A_G_Brito]
BobRyan Offline


Registered: 2008-09-26
Posts: 4360
Loc: Georgia
Originally Posted By: A_G_Brito


As to the points you try to rise here, it's funny that your objections were duly addressed in all the Ratzlaff discussions above and you seem to ostensively ignore them. Why do you come up here suggesting a repetition of these arguments that we have, in the name of Jesus, refuted totally?

Anyway, who knows you can answer that key-question that I addressed to Mr. Ratzlaff and someone in his staff, gave them even a time for a response, which never came, then I gave the CORRECT ANSWER for them to either accept or refute, but they simply IGNORED?

Please, try to answer this question that a Roman-Catholic in another forum even said it would be "impossible to be answered only through the Bible":

Where is it written that in the change from the Old to the New Covenant, when God writes what is called “My laws” in the hearts and minds of those who accept the terms of the New Covenant [New Testament] (Heb. 8:6-10), transferring the contents of the cold tables of stone to the hearts warmed by the divine grace (2 Cor. 3:2-7),

...
Basic texts: Hebrews 8:6-10; Jeremiah 31:31-33; Ezekiel 11:19, 20 and 36:26, 27.
[/font][/size]


AG Brito - thanks for the opening post and quotes of Sam Bacchiocchi's work on the Sabbath in Colossians and in Galatians.

The "pagan worship" section was very good and applies directly to the days of Galatians 4 that Paul condemns. Also the statement on the Law in Gal 3 and "faith comes" when the person is born-again, is right on target.

Lot's of good quotes in your material. I will be taking note and saving in my files.

God bless.

in Christ,

Bob
_________________________
John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free

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#428782 - 2011-03-11 09:13:18 Re: Paul and the Sabbath / Are 7th-day Adventists Afraid of Galatians? [Re: A_G_Brito]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 55
From my book, "exploring the heavenly sanctuary":

The Colossian heresy

It is worth taking a diversion at this point to consider Colossians 2:16-17:

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” (NASB)

Some theologians have cited this verse to claim that the weekly Sabbath has been abolished; there are a number of problems with this claim:

a) The Greek does not use the definite article for the word Sabbath; it can be translated as “a Sabbath day”, or “Sabbath days” depending on whether it is a Greek plural or a singular Aramaic transliteration, which is determined by the context[xiii]. If Paul had wanted to refer specifically to the weekly Sabbath he could have used the definite article and said, “the Sabbath”.

b) The use of the term shadow cannot be applied to the weekly Sabbath because it is a memorial of Creation and will be celebrated in the New Earth (Genesis 2:2-3; Isaiah 66:22-23). The term shadow is only applied to the ritual Sabbaths which involved animal sacrifices. In the Jewish calendar there were seven ritual Sabbath days, such as the first and last day of Passover, and the Day of Atonement. These ceremonial Sabbaths were instituted in the time of Moses and ended at the cross. Albert Barnes a Presbyterian commentator wrote:

“There is no evidence from this passage that he [Paul] would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. … He had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the ten commandments. No part of the moral law—no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as ‘a shadow of good things to come.’ These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal application.”[xiv]

c) The term “a Sabbath day” does not have to refer to the weekly Sabbath as some have claimed because the Greek word for “festival” (heorte) was used only for those festivals which involved a pilgrimage to Jerusalem[xv]. The Hebrews equivalent “chag” is related to the Arabic “haj” which is used for pilgrimages. The word “heorte” did not cover all the ceremonial Sabbaths, this was why the word for “a Sabbath day” was needed to make the expression complete. The Day of Atonement was called in Hebrew “an appointed time” (moed) but never a “festival” (chag); therefore the term “festivals and new moons” is incomplete. A further expression, “a Sabbath day” was needed to make the formula complete to cover all the ritual days.

d) By looking closely at the Epistle to the Colossians we can reconstruct the context, to better understand the meaning of Colossians 2:16-17:

One of the first elements points to a form of angelology. The Colossian heresy appears to have involved calling on angels as mediators between man and God (Col. 2:18). This is why Paul speaks of Jesus being over all principalities and powers (Col. 2:15), this kind of belief or angelology is known from Jewish writings of that era. Another element was strict adherence to certain diets and ascetic practices. In Colossians 2:16 the term “meat” is applied to all food, it is not confined specifically to unclean or clean foods; this appears to be an ascetic prohibition (Col. 2:21). The idea being if you punish your body enough you will get nearer to God. This stems from the Greek philosophy that material things are evil, so if you are very strict (Col. 2:23) and don’t eat certain foods and observed certain rituals and days you would become more holy and by calling on angel mediators in the spirit realm, they could help you in your spiritual journey. It sounds very similar to the modern New Age philosophy, but resulted in a religion that denied Christ as our personal Saviour. It was essentially an early form of Gnosticism, which focused more on knowledge but lacked true morality and in effect was salvation by works rather than in Christ. Given the context of this heresy, it seems unlikely that Paul was calling for the abolition of the weekly Sabbath. He was speaking against angelology, asceticism, and legalistic ritual practices. The solution was in Christ our Saviour, we don’t need angels, ascetic practices or to observe ritual days in order to be saved. What we should do however is to live a moral life (Col. Ch. 3) something the Gnostics often failed to do. We should put our faith not in strict diets, animal sacrifices or angels but in Christ.

It is clear that Paul endorsed the moral law and godly living (Romans 7:12; Titus 2:12) but at the same time did not want believers trying to their earn salvation by keeping days which involved animal sacrifices which were a shadow of things to come. There is nothing in the Epistle to the Colossians to countenance the abolition of the weekly Sabbath.

www.adventistenterprises.co.uk

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#428783 - 2011-03-11 09:15:45 Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: A_G_Brito]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 55
By looking at the Book of Galatians we can get a better concept of what Paul was speaking against:

Error 1) trying to earn salvation by our own works and the requirements of the law:

[Gal. 2:16] no one is justified by works of the law

Error 2) trying to enforce certain features of the ritual law beyond the cross:

[Gal. 5:6] there is no longer any need to observe circumcision
[Gal. 4:10-11] observing certain days, months, seasons and years (ritual days involving animal sacrifices) is contrary to the gospel
[Gal. 3:10; 5:3] it is inconsistent to keep part of the ritual law; in that case you need to keep all of it!

Paul was against trying to earn salvation by keeping the law; such a notion is contrary to the gospel of free grace (Eph. 2:8-9; Isa. 55:1). He was also against keeping part of the ritual law as an additional means of earning salvation for the same reason and also because these rites were now obsolete. However, we should not use our freedom in Christ as a license to sin (1 Pet. 2:16). The gospel leads to a transformation of character by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Cor. 3:18).

From my book, "Nehemiah the Sabbath Reformer"
www.adventistenterprises.co.uk

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