Why is there still self-love and self-seeking in your life? Answer that and you'll answer your question to me....

Legalism always brings out the worst in folks.....No peace...fear of God...just work, work, work on trying to get perfect so you can get to heaven and hope that God doesn't strike you dead. This will make a person go mad...i.e., get eat up with the flesh...even rebel against God....I'm thinking about leaving CA because all it does lately is gets me torqued....I don't need this garbage....

I am still wondering how one quote has been made the guiding principle above another, which states that Gods angels and evil angels destroy?

This is the key issue.

Why is this a "universal principle", upon who's authority has it been granted this "status"?

This idea that "God never destroys in an active role"...


It's not just one quote.

One can approach this from the basis of Scripture alone, or consider the SOP as well. From Scripture alone, the following is an excellent presentation: http://sinbearer.com/light_on_the_dark_side_of_god.htm

The basic approach is:

1.God has been misunderstood.
2.Christ revealed God as He really is.
3.Apparent contradictions (God appears to behave differently than Christ's portrait of God) are explained by the principle that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits.

There are many passages to establish each of these points. The author does an excellent job with this, so I won't repeat anything here.

With regards to the SOP, there are statements which speak directly to the issue, sometimes whole chapters, such as the case of the destruction of Jerusalem or what happened in France. There are also statements such as the following:

[God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.[/b] Christ's Object Lessons, 84.



This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.



Tradition and misinterpretation has obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. G.C.492.

[God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy. MS 17, 1906.

He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

So it's not just one statement.

Here's a nice statement from S. N. Haskell:

While it was in harmony with worldly government, it was not, however, according to the principle of the heavenly government. Hence it is, that again, in the person of the Babylonian king, Satan is challenging the government of God. When Lucifer and his angels refused to bow before the throne of God, the Father would not then destroy them. They should live until death should come as a result of the course they pursued. The Babylonian king, however, threatened utter destruction to all who refused to worship his golden image. The motive power in the heavenly government is love; human power when exercised becomes tyranny. All tyranny is a repetition of the Babylonian principles. We sometimes call it papal; it is likewise Babylonian. When the civil power enforces worship of any sort, be that worship true or false in itself, to obey is idolatry. The command must be backed by some form of punishment,-a fiery furnace,-and the conscience of man is no longer free. From a civil standpoint, such legislation is tyranny, and looked at from a religious point of view, it is persecution. {1901 SNH, SDP 41.1

This explains the issue well. If God threatens to set people on fire to burn for days if they do not worship Him, then "the conscience of man is no longer free."


But what about the plain quotes that do not agree with your position Pnatt?

What of those, are you going to quote those as well my friend?

Or just those that you use to support this position?


Mark :-)
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Mark, don't u get it? :) the quotes cited by pnatt in the above post contain the "keys" graciously given to us by the Holy Spirit who is the Teacher of God's people to unlock the meaning of the quotes you are talking about.

sky

What absurd folly. I like it better when you talk about Jones and Waggoner.

Mark, we need to sit at the feet of Jesus in order to understand the deep things of God. We need to learn at the school of Christ what Holy Writ means by such expressions as "whom the Lord shall consumed with the spirit of His mouth, and shall be destroyed with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess.2:8.

The superficial reader will never understand this language unless he is willing to leave all his preconceived opinions at the door of investigation and let the Holy Spirit be the Teacher.

This Scripture has been usually understood to portray the picture of Christ descending the advent skies, while before Him precede great flowing sheets of devouring flame which reach out to consume whoever of the impenitent have somehow managed to survive the seven last plagues.

Such an interpretation of this Scripture, obvious as it may appear, is out of harmony with the character of God and Christ. If fire emanating from Him kills the wicked, then there is a direct, destructive work associated with His presence and Person. Therefore, He would be an executioner after all. But He is not, nor ever will be.

sky

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A further evidence to support the fact that it is not the pulsing forth of fire from the Person of Christ which destroys the wicked, is the final confrontation around the city of God. There the wicked come quite close to the presence of Christ Who is just as powerful then as when He returns the second time. But they are able to march against the city in which is the presence of God and of Christ. They are able to stand there right through the revelation of the mystery of Christ, and they are able to see all that God wants them to see without being consumed with physical fire from the presence of God and His Son.

sky

the bolded part gives that idea unless we miss what it is saying. Gods presence is like a "consuming fire" to the lost.

During that long time spent in communion with God, the face of Moses had reflected the glory of the divine Presence; unknown to himself his face shone with a dazzling light when he descended from the mountain. Such a light illumined the countenance of Stephen when brought before his judges; "and all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel." Acts 6:15. Aaron as well as the people shrank away from Moses, and "they were afraid to come nigh him." Seeing their confusion and terror, but ignorant of the cause, he urged them to come near. He held out to them the pledge of God's reconciliation, and assured them of His restored favor. They perceived in his voice nothing but love and entreaty, and at last one ventured to approach him. Too awed to speak, he silently pointed to the countenance of Moses, and then toward heaven. The great leader understood his meaning. In their conscious guilt, feeling themselves still under the divine displeasure, they could not endure the heavenly light, which, had they been obedient to God, would have filled them with joy. There is fear in guilt. The soul that is free from sin will not wish to hide from the light of heaven. {PP 329.5}

By this brightness God designed to impress upon Israel the sacred, exalted character of His law, and the glory of the gospel revealed through Christ. While Moses was in the mount, God presented to him, not only the tables of the law, but also the plan of salvation. He saw that the sacrifice of Christ was pre-figured by all the types and symbols of the Jewish age; and it was the heavenly light streaming from Calvary, no less than the glory of the law of God, that shed such a radiance upon the face of Moses. That divine illumination symbolized the glory of the dispensation of which Moses was the visible mediator, a representative of the one true Intercessor. {PP 330.2}

The glory reflected in the countenance of Moses illustrates the blessings to be received by God's commandment-keeping people through the mediation of Christ. It testifies that the closer our communion with God, and the clearer our knowledge of His requirements, the more fully shall we be conformed to the divine image, and the more readily do we become partakers of the divine nature. {PP 330.3}

Moses was a type of Christ. As Israel's intercessor veiled his countenance, because the people could not endure to look upon its glory, so Christ, the divine Mediator, veiled His divinity with humanity when He came to earth. Had He come clothed with the brightness of heaven, he could not have found access to men in their sinful state. They could not have endured the glory of His presence. Therefore He humbled Himself, and was made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), that He might reach the fallen race, and lift them up. {PP 330.4}

I do not agree Sky.

They are proof texts taken out of context to present a view that Ellen White did not believe.

Ellen White stated that God destroys personally and permissively.

The Bible states the same.

Nowhere in either will we find the principle that only permissive destruction is rendered.

Mark

Does this mean you do not think that I sit at the feet of Jesus and learn brother?

Does this mean I am just reading superficially?


How can you possibly know that?

Mark :-)

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In this text, the simple plain truth is that the Lord "destroys" the wicked with the brightness of His coming.

Mark

Mark, we need to sit at the feet of Jesus in order to understand the deep things of God. We need to learn at the school of Christ what Holy Writ means by such expressions as "whom the Lord shall consumed with the spirit of His mouth, and shall be destroyed with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess.2:8.

The superficial reader will never understand this language unless he is willing to leave all his preconceived opinions at the door of investigation and let the Holy Spirit be the Teacher.

This Scripture has been usually understood to portray the picture of Christ descending the advent skies, while before Him precede great flowing sheets of devouring flame which reach out to consume whoever of the impenitent have somehow managed to survive the seven last plagues.

Such an interpretation of this Scripture, obvious as it may appear, is out of harmony with the character of God and Christ. If fire emanating from Him kills the wicked, then there is a direct, destructive work associated with His presence and Person. Therefore, He would be an executioner after all. But He is not, nor ever will be.

sky


The Scriptures clearly teach that this fire does not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked any more than strong delusions are sent directly out from the Lord to those who do not receive the love of the truth. This is what the Bible teaches and nothing else. Never at any time is the Lord the executioner of the sentence against transgression but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.