Al-Qaida calls on US Muslims to attack America

… By PATRICK QUINN, Associated Press Writer Patrick Quinn, Associated Press Writer – 35 mins ago

CAIRO – Al-Qaida's American-born spokesman on Sunday called on Muslims serving in the U.S. armed forces to emulate the Army major charged with killing 13 people in Fort Hood.

In a 25-minute video posted on militant Web sites, Adam Gadahn described Maj. Nidal Hasan as a pioneer who should serve as a role model for other Muslims, especially those serving Western militaries.

"Brother Nidal is the ideal role-model for every repentant Muslim in the armies of the unbelievers and apostate regimes," he said.

Gadahn, also known as Azzam al-Amriki, was dressed in white robes and wearing a white turban as he called for attacks on what he described as "high-value targets."

"You shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that military bases are the only high-value targets in America and the West. On the contrary, there are countless other strategic places, institutions and installations which, by striking, the Muslim can do major damage," he said, an assault rifle leaning up against a wall next to him.

Hasan has been charged in the Nov. 5 shooting that killed 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas. The 39-year-old Army psychiatrist remains paralyzed from the chest down after being shot by two civilian members of Fort Hood's police force.

"Nidal Hasan is a pioneer, a trailblazer and a role-model who has opened a door, lit a path and shown the way forward for every Muslim who finds himself among the unbelievers," Gadahn said.

Gadahn grew up on a goat farm in Riverside County, California, and converted to Islam at a mosque in nearby Orange County. He has been wanted by the FBI since 2004 and two years later was charged with treason. There is a $1 million reward for information leading to his arrest or conviction.

He has in the past posted videos and messages calling for the destruction of the West and for strikes against targets in the United States. His location is unknown, but he is believed to be somewhere along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

In the latest video, Gadahn said those planning attacks did not need to use only firearms like Hasan, but could use other weapons. "As the blessed operations of September 11th showed, a little imagination and planning and a limited budget can turn almost anything into a deadly, effective and convenient weapon."

Gadahn said fighters should target mass transportation systems in the West and also wreak havoc "by killing or capturing people in government, industry and the media."

He recommended finding ways to shake "consumer confidence and stifle spending" and noted that even unsuccessful attacks, such as the failed attempt to bomb a U.S. airliner on Christmas day, can bring major cities to a halt.

"I am calling on every honest and vigilant Muslim in the countries of the Zionist-Crusader alliance in general and America, Britain and Israel in particular to prepare to play his due role in responding to and repelling the aggression of the enemies of Islam," Gadahn said.

JOHN317

WELL that was a very interesting article and a little scary

dgrimm60

OLGER

WELL that is an interesting sign that you posted

hhhmmmmmmmm


dgrimm60

QR frame:

Re Moderate Islam: “ It doesn’t exist” --Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas’ founder

...seems the default definition would be fanatical/terrorist/jihadist, no?—enemies of America?—you, me?—our children?

Naaahhh..., ya’think?

Apparently, Jihadism is the delivery system of Allah; but then again – it is not the belief of the Muslims that they are to conquer the entire planet for Allah and Dar al-Islam, and Dar al-Harb.

Naaahhh..., ya’think?

Oh...Islam is such a peaceful religion. Muslims wouldn't do anything bad to non-Muslims, especially Americans. They love Americans, and are so kind and benevolent to them.

Warning...This is only sattire...



The world owes a lot to the tempering presence of Christianity. Without it, everyone would soon kill everyone off because they would all hate each other enough to want everyone dead.

Really? Are you kidding me? Remember WW1 & WW2. Christians proven themselves to be very proficient and in-fact efficient killers.

A half-full glass has a lot of air in it. :)


To Quote Bill Pearce (Nightsounds speaker): "The presence of comitted believers in Jesus Christ keeps the entire world from rotting away at the seams."

I'd take Bill's perspective long before Jeremiah Wright's.




blessings,

oG

olger I haven't seen anyone here take JWs side. But I have to agree with Lazarus. And he didn't even go back far enough, or have we forgotten how many Jew's, the real believer's in Christ and Muslims for that matter were killed by so called Christians?

pk

It was the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor, and did an extraordinarily good job of it. *They* weren't Christians. And who was in charge of the Bataan Death March? It wasn't Christians.

Ok then!





Of course you would! So might David Duke.

duke..

Duke ??

DUKE !!!!!?????????????????????????????



oG out

ok Letterman then!

So we're all cool with all Christians being judged by the BTK serial killer, then?

No. What's BTK?

Dennis Rader was a Lutheran deacon and serial killer, who gave himself the nickname 'BTK' for 'Bind, Torture, Kill'. He was a pillar of his local congregation for all of the 20 years or so that he was killing people for his own twisted pleasure.

He no more represents all Christians than the loons quoted in this thread represent all Muslims, but some seem content to judge a billion people by the actions and statements of a very few extremists.

is there any one person who really represents his/her group?

Okay, I remember him now.

The problem I see is that the belief system of Muslims has been touted as "Kill the Americans, Kill the British, Kill, Kill, Kill." The Muslims know that's how we've been indoctrinated. If they want us to know something different, then why don't they have Islamic Infomercials, telling about the REAL Islamic culture? They have enough money to do it.

I don't find it to be incumbent upon myself to go out of my way to learn about Islam. I'm not interested in Islam. I AM interested in staying safe and alive.

A goodly number of mooslisms are like angry out-of-control children. Violently emotive.


I am persuaded that they are the genetic offspring of the Great Harlot of Revelation 17.





oG

How about "Jesus" as an answer to the above question? and Christians [please note, Xians is spelled with a capital "C"], who follow Jesus to the best of their ability...

But you'all knew that, didn't you? And you all would say that "Jesus" in subject to the interpretation of the individual, didn't you? Hence, we have Christians and then we have christians...




Hmmmmmm....interesting concept...A christian who deliberately refuses to learn...Hmmmmmmmm...don't think that is too safe a concept to live by...let alone a concept that encourages staying alive...I prefer one that encourages me to thrive and live...which means that I do a lot of studying and sometimes, I NEED to go out of my way to learn about others that I am not too keen on....


Regarding "mooslisms"


That is very christian of you, olger....Wrong type of christian, but christian nevertheless....Bless yer heart.

Thank you, Neil, for your labelling me as a christian. (note the small "c") That was very christian of you. I appreciate that. It's shows a true christian spirit.

Show me why I need to learn about muslims.

The evident contempt, or at best, apathy, toward Muslims by some here as well as so frequently expressed by Americans (who predominantly claim to be Christian) in general, raises an interesting thought in light of the twisted and oft derailed discussion elsewhere about our Christian attitude toward the poor.

The overwhelming majority of Muslims live in poverty. Muslims are the largest group of people living in extreme poverty today. More than a half billion Muslims live in "extreme poverty", defined by the World Bank as living on less than $1.25/day. That is more than a third of all of those living in extreme poverty.

And poverty is a major contributing factor in the tensions between the Islamic world and the West.

So what are we Christians to do about it?

I don't know, Tom. I'm not a Christian, according to Neil, so I guess I don't need to worry about it.

But why aren't the sheiks who have billions of money do something to help their own? Don't they care?

What is truely bothering you, Pam...? The concept that you refuse to learn? Or your experience that encourages your hatred of muslims? Or that you are nit-picking?

Either way, doesn't that earn you the little "c" in Christian? Just askin'.....

My experience with Muslims is not allowed to be discussed.

I don't hate most Muslims.

I am not nit-picking.

You are the one who gave me the little "c" in christian.

Maybe the radical Muslims got on the internet one day and that's why they now want to put the Christians out of their misery.

I mean, if we're killing each other mentally, why shouldn't they finish the job? Plus it would be a lot quieter and if we were gone. Then they could sit down and have long, friendly chats on Club Islam...

Their poverty is not because of the west.



Their leaders are more than happy to keep them in as much poverty as possible


If someone does not praise or share their opinion of Islam they are accused of hatred. Just flipping that around perhaps those that have taken you to task are expressing hatred towards you.

Osama Bin Laden comes to mind.He could improve the lot of many muslims.Maybe the contribution to the families of muslim suicide bombers count.
The duty of christians is different than a secular government. Our government is not responsible or obligated to make sure our culture is approved of by muslims or anyone else.




Sure they do.Families are compensated for those they dupe into becoming suicide bombers

Did God create every human being?

Did Jesus die for every human being?

End of discussion about some human beings being worth more than others.

I don't think anywhere has it been questioned whether God created all or who Jesus died for.
Nor was any statement made about some human beings worth more than others.

Yeah Bravus....

Statement made...question asked!
After reading replies to the above........

Rebuttal to none asked question, but no suggestions in answer of question! Do we have a AADD problem on these forums?

Islam behaved in this fashion centuries ago. Why start with the internet?
If Americans are to be expected to hang their heads in shame over actions taken by the early settlers we should expect no less from muslims. Their behavior was bloody and brutal from the get go.
If as was said....And poverty is a major contributing factor in the tensions between the Islamic world and the West.
what caused this brutal bloody behavior of muslims. The west "US,Americans" did not exist to shoulder the blame.What country or culture do you blame?

Jews started out that way too. I saw it in the Bible. But I guess everyone here is too PC to say anything about about them.

Well... all of them.

Please explain what you found in the bible concerning the wanton butchery of Jews. There are battles commanded by God,but unless you believe Islam was commanded by God,show me the similarity.






Each is responsible for their own behavior. Leaders of impoverished countries are responsible for bad leadership. Maybe if more attention were paid by them they would not have to blame the US.

It doesn't matter whether you believe God commanded it; the Qur'an also claims that God commanded them to go to war. You're just letting the Jews off the hook because you believe in their book.

I *had* an answer, but I'm not allowed to write it.

I don't have any faith in the Qur'an.It is not inspired by God.
It makes a great deal of difference if something was commanded by God.
BTW what is their book? The OT? I thought that was mine as well along with the NT.

If acknowledging that I believe the bible and that it is the only inspired word of God is letting anyone,Jew or?? off the hook I guess I have to say guilty.

For this purpose it does not matter whether or not either was inspired by God.

If the Qur'an said, "Everyone who is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is captured will fall by the sword. Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished," you would say that that was wrong and terrible. But if it's in the Bible, it's okay, because you believe in the Bible.

Mac Mac Mac

To me it does. There are many portions of the bible I do not enjoy reading. But I believe them to be true no matter what is says.

I understand a muslim will choose the Qur'an as inspired. That does not make it so or the bible any less inspired.

If americans have to be verbally lashed and blamed for the muslim hatreds then we need to stop revering the muslim religion.
Their history,based on blood and death should be remembered at the sight or words of a muslim anywhere as it is with americans.
I do not revere the religion of Islam,I believe it to be something evil for many.
I do not believe the west is responsible for their poverty.Their leaders are and will keep them that way.A thriving nation has little interest in blowing up bldgs in America.
I don't care if they like or approve our culture.I don't approve of theirs either.
I don't care if they added bits and pieces of the bible into theirs.It does not make theirs inspired.
I don't care what they believe as long as they do not force others at the point of a knife to follow theirs.
They should be treated with fairness and kindness.They should not be given freedom to run rough shod over others

"Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons. This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith" (Paul of Tarsus).

Peter wasn't POLITICALLY CORRECT either.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.." (2 peter 2:9-12).

I guess Peter & Paul had no trouble with honesty. Halleleujah,



oG

Hmmmmm....Same attitude as the early settler, I would imagine. Substitute "injun" for "muslim" and "Great Spirit" for "Qur'an" and I believe there is a problem here....



Ah, patri-ism...Isn't it a beautiful thing?! No need for it to be correct, but that patriotic spirit will never be bannished ever again....Say, wasn't it the chief high priest who said that for politics sake, one man should die for the nation?



Wonder if the early settlers said the same thing about the indians....



I am sure that the early settlers were of the same mind.... substitute "uprisings" for "blowing up bldgs"....



Same as the early settlers...



Same attitude as the early settlers.....



That is the same attitude as the early settlers against the indian.....



"fairness and kindness"....We sent the indian off thier land and to the 'reservations'....Sure, that was fair....

Murder and slaughter are OK - indeed, laudable - when 'we' do it but damnable when 'they' do it. OK.

This quote from Sam Harris that a friend posted on Facebook yesterday comes to mind...

"Religion raises the stakes of human conflict much higher than tribalism, racism, or politics ever can, as it is the only form of in-group/out-group thinking that casts the difference between people in terms of eternal rewards and punishments" Sam Harris

It would really be helpful if you could actually stick to what was said. I did say the way this land was settled it was atrocious.
It was also the way of the world at that time. Wrong as it was land was conquered by those stronger than the inhabitants.
As the Ojibwe of MN conquered,killed and made slaves of the Souix.

Atrocious, but you don't anyone making a big deal out over it, because that's just the way people were back then.

But of course that doesn't count for the Muslims! They were obviously a different story. Nasty people!

There is little point to making a big deal of it. America is a reality,it is done. Many things were done "back then" that would be hard to understand or think right. The attitude that America must forever hang it's head in shame or that it invaded this peaceful tranquil land where all was love and harmony is bogus and is getting old.No one alive today had a thing to do with it and it cannot be changed.



Big difference in case you have not read your history. Islam is still the same bloody brutal religion it was in the beginning. They conquered,killed and tortured many,many people and that has not stopped.
They did not come here to conquer this land.They came to kill and produce terror and then have the grunts die with them as their "christian leaders" of theirs directed.

Muslims kill muslims at quite a rate.Explain how that happens with this peaceful religion. Since around 1948 well over 11,000,000 muslims have been killed. Can you guess by who? What does their hatred of the west have to do with the slaughter of so many of their own. Maybe you want to look up the very small number that were actually killed by Israel.
Well over 90% were muslims killed by muslims.

There is but one inspired word of God.What you believe I have no idea.It maybe in other languages but God's word is inspired. Sorry if you have a problem with that.There is nothing inspired by the Qur"an







If you hold one group accountable for acts centuries ago,that should hold for Islam as well.
Prior to anything good being said about them,recount their evils committed against others




I would think so.I am sure the indians were devout about their belief but that did not make it so. I believe those that lived up to the light they had will be in the kingdom










I doubt it,they did not come for the sole reason to kill. Muslims did








Maybe you think the muslims should have input to american culture I don't. If they don't like it,stay home.





There is one inspired word of God,I hope the settlers believed that. Maybe not




What they believe is not my responsibility.As long as they do not use force against others to "make them believe" as they do.




You are adding again.What part of "the settling of this land was atrocious" are you having problems understanding ?

"Nothing inspired by the Qur'an"? I am aware that the Sabbath is presented in a favorable light in the Qur'an....And that is the Saturday Sabbath....







I wonder...if we were ever to get to the negotiating table with Islam or the Teleban, AND we recounted all the attrocities that they did...I wonder how far we would get in negotiating .....



What? Those savages that scalped people and hung those same scalps on thier belts??? Something tells me that the early settlers thought only that the savages were evil....



Hmmmmmm.....I am sure that the Indian thought of it when the white man broke so many treaties. I am sure that when they uprose against the attrocities of the white man, they slaughtered farms/families...I wonder how many culture foopahs/no-nos we managed to mangle with the muslims....Nah, they're just savages, like the indian. There's no reasoning with them....right?




Hey, I never said that...Don't you be a puttin' words in MY mouth that I never said...Your the one with the chip on her shoulder over muslims...You are the one who wants to destroy them and kill them because they are senseless creatures...You are the one who doesn't want to treat them as human beings and find out thier greivances with us...This is how you WANT it done....destroy the lot of them....and do it in the name of God and the good ol' US of A.



Perhaps...but if you were to take the time to understand what we have done to create the attitude that they have against us, maybe, just maybe, you might understand thier hatred against us...Nah, don't do it...you've relegated them to less than human beings...mere pests to exterminate...Isn't that what Germany said of the Jews?.....



Abducation of responsibility that our Savior entrusted to us is not an option...."Go into all the world, making deciples and lo, I will be with you until the end of the age..."It is YOUR responsibility....and you had better care...otherwise they will sense your...lack of caring...




The same problem of understanding your atrocious attitude . Perhaps you didn't notice that I was noticing your attitude....

I wasn't talking about the settling of America at all: the 'we' in my post was us Judeo-Christians. (I'm not in the American 'we'...)

It's OK for the Jews to begin in slaughter, because God said so, but when the Muslims do so 1200 years later, it's damnable. That's my point and my whole point. Exceptionalism.

Murder is OK for people with whom we agree but just cause to dismiss entirely and damn entire religions with whom we disagree.

Murder is murder. As Feyerabend said, there is no culturally authentic torture or murder, there is just torture or murder.

If God commanded it, so much the worse for God.

There really isn't any debate as far as I am concerned.Obeying should

The bloody slaughter of Islam was not directed by God.




Wrong again



Well, we obviously disagree.Whatever God commanded was right for god to do.God cannot make a mistake

You are probably right and so what?


Hmmmmmm.....I am sure that the Indian thought of it when the white man broke so many treaties. I am sure that when they uprose against the attrocities of the white man, they slaughtered farms/families...I wonder how many culture foopahs/no-nos we managed to mangle with the muslims....Nah, they're just savages, like the indian. There's no reasoning with them....right?

Probably a few.Is there reasoning with a terrorist? Not generally






You really don't have a problem doing so to others. .Don't you be a puttin' words in MY mouth that I never said..
I would like you to produce one time where I said I wanted t destroy them,kill them because they are senseless human beings Or to destroy the lot of them.I never invoked God to kill them or have them killed








I assumed you were but as I did not say what you have claimed for me I really didn't care

God makes all kinds of mistakes, in the eyes of "creational agnostics" and "progressive" biblical critics.

Actually , generally, yes.

The point of terrorism is to bring terror so that the government/authorities will be willing to talk. It worked in Northern Ireland.

Not generally. Try reasoning with Osama Bin-Laden and reach a compromise

No, the point of terrorism is to terrorize so that people will be willing to give up anything to make the terrorism stop. It is not to get government to talk. It is to get the government to give in to the demands of the terrorists or to simply get the government to a point of paralysis (or out of the way) so that the terrorists can gain power or control.

Terrorists are simply misunderstood gentle souls that want only the best for "their people"

Most if not all terrorist groups don't have the capacity to take over the government or they would actually form some kind of militia or rebel army. The reason they resort to terrorism is because of their relatively small numbers and relatively limited resources.

Governments talk to terrorists all the time.They always will.

I wanted to share this but wasn't sure where would be best, so since this is mostly related to the topic I'll post it here.


At Pathfinders last night, taking prayer requests, our leader suggested praying for the troops in Iraq. One kid said, "We're winning!"
Leader: "Yeah, but a lot of people are dying over there, so..."
Kid: "Well, yeah, but a lot of the Taliban are dying too..."

Muslim=people disconnect? There seems to be a lot of that going around in some places. Of course, this particular kid has a brother in Iraq, so it's sort of understandable, but still...

At least another kid said, "Well, duh!" That made me feel at least slightly better.

OK, but the Taliban are not just Muslim. They are Muslims who are out to kill innocent people or anyone who gets in the way of their ambitions to rule the country. They don't care if they have power legally or by the will of the people. So there's a sense in which it's irrelevent whether they're Muslim. Because of the danger they pose to the safety of the people, their religion isn't the primary issue. It would be the same if atheists or adherents of any other religion posed the same kind of danger.

As a Seventh-day Adventist, I would treat the Taliban the same as I do anyone else, and I would help them if they were hurt and I pray for them that they will be converted to Christ. I recognize that God loves them as much as he loves me. Christ died for each person, including the Taliban. But I could say the same thing about Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot or Mao or the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor and forced my great-uncle to walk in the Bataan Death March in the Philippines. However, having said that, you can be sure that I'm glad the US won the war against the Nazis and against the Fascist Italians and Japanese.

We can be glad that American children are in favor of Americans winning the war in Afghanistan. I wouldn't want my children to feel indifferent about who wins the war over there. Our neighbors and family members are fighting over there to help the Afghan people have their freedom, including the freedom of females to be educated. I'd say that's worth fighting for. Freedom is worth dying and fighting for, don't you agree?

Okay, then Taliban=people. They're people no matter what group they happen to be in, of course.

Terrorists like that are sort of tricky for me to think about, but I don't think people should be killing them.

I'm glad that the result of World War II made the world better, but I don't think that justifies all the death and pain that comes from war.

Jesus fought and died for our freedom. Of course I agree that we should be fighting. But not against people. We should fight for people, against the real enemy. And I don't consider the Taliban or anyone else my enemy. They are people who were born in a different place than I was, with different lives than mine. The more I think about all the wars we fight and have fought, the less I agree that they were God's will.

May the God of peace be with you. :D

And that group will be more than happy to cut your head off with a dull knife.


Do you have a suggestion as to what should be done? Should our country let them commit a 9/11 at will?


Without the death and pain and the ultimate tremendous sacrifice of many we would not have won the war.



I thought Jesus came to give us eternal life.Many,many christians have been christians at great cost and not free.
You might have a different outlook on who your enemy is when they are in the process of sawing of your head. Really tough to think of them as friends

May the God of peace be with you. :D [/quote]

Well... we could pray.

Was it worth it for the people who died without Jesus?

Oh, yes. He came to give us eternal life, and He came to set us free! :D And we are free. Even if we're prisoners of the Taliban!

I wouldn't doubt that it would be hard. I wouldn't think of them as my friends anyway, but still not as my enemies. I say that when you love your enemies they stop being your enemies and you see them as God sees them. But, since I'm not having my head sawed off, I guess I'll have to wait until then to see.

QR frame:

Utopia is only a dream away (emphasis on dream)

Jesus Christ left us with the admonition to--

"Buy a sword" - as opposed to dull knives.

What?—for ease of butchering? Tchah! For defensive purposes?—or to proactively protect and to ensure justice for the weak?

Not for nuthin’ Jesus Christ spoke!

Actually, when Peter was proactively protecting and ensuring justice, Jesus told him to put his sword away...

It might be rather arrogant to believe those that disagree with you are a stranger to that idea


Millions have died without Jesus. I don't think that is an indication that we should just stand there and allow a slaughter like Pearl Harbor.
Didn't Samson on instruction from God kill many as well as himself.Did he forget they were just different than himself and just really wanted to be friends

Seems David took Goliath down to size per God's instructions.Whatever was he thinking?


I am not convinced that God has in mind for us to be prisoners of the Taliban as they go about their fiendish work
Forfeiting your life for your religious convictions is a bit different than forfeiting it to those that take your life because they are evil and they can.
Yeah,I know you probably don't believe people that will behead you just because they don't like you as your enemy.

The nearer one comes to the leader demonstrates the power of Christianity over every religion.
Remember Joseph the hated brother? Moses the most humble man? Daniel the Prime Minister? Stephen the deacon? Ruby Bridges the 6 year-old who changed America? Martin Luther King?
Only Christ living in us can supply such power.

I don't know what God's going to do with Islam but I do know we can live Christ's life now if we let His mind be in us. . .

...erm, and the Taliban are not in Iraq...

I'm not going to argue in favor of any war, but I believe there can come a time when good people must lethally resist evil people. Let's go back in time and see whether you agree that bad guys should be killed sometimes.

What about Goliath or any of the Philistines? What about the people of Jericho?

If you agree that, when God directs, evil people should be killed, then you agree that people can get to the place that they should be killed.

Now the question is, does that happen any more, or has God's Spirit so transformed the lives of everyone that people no longer get to the point that they need to be killed?

War is not the answer.
Yours truely, Neville Chamberlain

I didn't say you were a stranger. But nobody had brought it up as a viable alternative to war.

If God has directly told us to be involved in any of the wars that have been mentioned, then I stand corrected. But I don't recall ever hearing about this. People always seem to assume that God is on their side. Hitler thought God was on his side, too, but obviously that wasn't the case.

Also, I never said that our national enemies wanted to be friends.

Of course they can. It might be rather arrogant to believe those that disagree with you are a stranger to that idea.

Who gets to decide when the evil people should be killed? I don't know of any divine revelation in the last two thousand years that has directed anyone to kill anyone. If we get to decide who dies, then we can just kill anyone we disagree with or don't like.

Many that I know have used that viable alternative many,many times. Those on the battlefield,mothers that are sending their sons and daughters to the battlefield.




I don't think God has prohibited a country from defending itself.


What they would like to do is conquer the US




Maybe Pearl Harbor,9/11,the various other terrorist attacks.Those were a bit more than mere disagreements.

Alternative. Not supplement. Alternative. We should pray for those who are fighting but it would be far better if we were not fighting to begin with.
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth? We're not in the Old Testament anymore.

My point in my original post was to ask if all of our glorification of war was dehumanizing the other side. You can deny it all you want, but the fact is that you could have been born as Osama bin Laden just as easily as you were born who you really are.

Jesus said, I believe, to do good to those who hate you and persecute you. How that does not apply to terrorists I have no idea. But the New Testament never tells us to fight other people. Ever.

Just remember this: today's "brave men and women fighting for freedom" could be tomorrow's "destroy the sabbath-breakers who are bringing disaster on the world".

The first order of business is to settle in our minds whether that decision must ever be made. There is no sense deciding who must decide if we believe nobody needs to decide.

Does it ever happen anymore that someone becomes so depraved or dangerous that he or she should be put to death? If your answer is "No" there is no need to discuss this any further.

How should I know if someone is so depraved or dangerous that he or she should be put to death? For all I know, if they aren't killed, the next day they will become a Christian.

I wouldn't trust myself to know when someone should die. So, in a way, my answer is "No".

I guess we're done then. Unless someone wants to step up to the plate of omniscience.

Well,if I had the choice of Charles Manson,one I personally believe is totally depraved and evil,living next door to me and getting the death penalty,the death penalty wins.

The green river serial killer is another. The choice of him running free and killing dozens of young women,just because he could,and the death penalty,the death penalty wins.

Perhaps you believe rather than the death penalty,a loaf of home made bread would do it and soften his heart. Good for you

There is something called "prison", you know. It does not involve destroying people, and it keeps them from continuing to break the law.

I didn't say prison wasn't an option.

Do you think there has been, since the Bible times, a criminal or person so heinous that he deserved the death penalty?

I don't know! How heinous does one have to be? Is there a rating scale?

OK, you're off the hook if you cannot think of a single person who has existed since Biblical times who deserved the death penalty. Clearly, people must be getting better in your view.

While some here may think that all muslims are violent or have violent intentions, I wonder what the world would be like if all of one billion muslims decide to kill somebody or even just one percent of them decide to kill somebody ? Just cazy how one sixth of the world population gets judged on the actions of a minority of a minority.

God has called us to love all the same. I don't know where this us and them attidude comes from within the ranks of some of our Adventist thinking themselves more worthy than the muslim.

Welcome to Club Adventist, 2721ROCKS! And I totally agree.

Countries are not defined or created by God. Countries with borders is man instituted and man has provided his own solutions in in this matter.

We have many things not "created" by God.

People in prison break the law all the time. Many convicted murderers continue to murder even while in prison. In fact, the man who was justifiably executed last night committed murder while he was in court for committing an earlier murder.

God Himself said, "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed; because in the image of God He made man." Gen. 9: 6.

God also commanded: "Whoever kills a man shall be put to death." Lev. 24: 27.

Paul was inspired by God to write that the governments of the world are "God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." Romans 13: 4.

Whoever kills a man? Okay.

People who should die/should have died:
David
Paul (whom you quote, and who apparently says that the North Korean government is God's minister)
Moses
Every soldier who ever lived
Reformed murderers who are now Christians
Gideon (and Samson and all the judges and, well, pretty much everyone in the Old Testament)

I can't even remember how many stories I've read of people who had killed at least one person, and by and by they became Christians. But I guess they should have been killed first.

Do you believe that soldier's fighting for their country are "murderers" if they take human life in the course of battle?

In your judgment, were American soldiers in the Civil War, the Revolutionary War, or WW II "murderers"?

You said (yes, I know, quoting the Bible) that everyone who kills a man should die.

Are those people killing men? Yes. So you are saying that they should die.

Or is killing people in battle okay, when walking up to that person in the street (if you were both civilians) and killing them is wrong?

Even if a murderer becomes a Christian, he has to pay for his crimes. Society can't say that if a person murders someone but then becomes converted, he should avoid punishment. People whom God forgives usually go on to reap the painful consequences of their sins in this life.

I didn't say that we shouldn't punish anyone. I'm asking whether or not we should kill them. Obviously, we punish plenty of people without killing them.

I thought you would understand. "Killing" == murder. Not self-defense or while obeying the command of God or while in the military obeying lawful orders of one's superiors. See Numbers 35: 9ff; Deut. 19; Joshua 20.



From the viewpoint of human society, yes.

A Christian would have to decide the answer for themselves. It would have to be between the believer and God. We can't answer this question for other people. I chose not to train or carry a weapon during the Vietnam war. But I never considered other soldiers who did differently to be wrong. The same with Desmond Doss.

But no court of law anywhere in the world would find a man guilty of murder if he killed enemy soldiers in the course of a battle between opposing armies.

When God ordered men into battle to kill enemies, those soldiers were never considered "murderers" by God. See Deut.13. On the contrary some of them were considered great heroes. God blessed some men, such as Phinehas, for killing people. See Judges 5; Joshua 10; and Numbers 25: 6-18.

Yes, I understand. I didn't mean to imply that you were suggesting criminals shouldn't be punished.

I believe there are some crimes for which death is the only just and appropriate punishment.

The Bible certainly supports that viewpoint.

Some people believe Christ's words about forgiving one's enemies mean that He taught that criminals shouldn't be killed for their crimes, but I don't believe Jesus intended for us to understand His words that way. Christ was talking to His followers, not to states and governments. As an individual believer, I will certainly forgive anyone who does evil to me, but governments don't have a right to let criminals off without punishment just because the person they hurt forgives them. The society has a moral and civil obligation to enforce the law and to punish law-breakers. That's one of its main purposes for its existence.

If a society decides that some crimes are worthy of death, the society or community has a right to make that decision, just as the society has a right to make its other laws.

Leviticus 24:22 says "kill". Not "murder". So the rule is that whoever kills someone should die.

Why is it that Christians are supposed to call wrong things wrong... except fighting. We're supposed to speak against slavery, abortion, adultery, etc., but when it comes to fighting, oh, no, we can't say that it's wrong (never mind that Jesus said to love your enemies).

By the way, governments allow or have allowed slavery, abortion, etc. And some have outlawed Christianity. So... maybe, just maybe, we're supposed to obey God first.

So we should do things like they did in the Old Testament, or should we do what Jesus said and love our enemies? Should we use the Old Testament to interpret Jesus or Jesus to interpret the Old Testament?

Why? What does their death accomplish?

Including where Jesus said to love our enemies?

In other words, it's okay for governments to tell people to kill each other, so if your government says to, you should kill someone.

Or are we only talking about obeying "good" governments?

What? I thought that culture and society weren't supposed to determine right and wrong. Isn't that what you said to refute women's ordination?

If a society decides that wrong is right it does not make it right.

Any society must make laws, which define what is right and wrong in that society. There's no escapting this.

But no society has a God-given right to determine the beliefs and practices of the church. A government sometimes does this by force, as in Nazi Germany and the USSR and communist China, but it's not morally right for them to do it, just as it is not morally right for governments to make slaves of its citizens, although many have done it.

You may need to return to the discussion and reread the posts, because no one ever said that the society cannot make its own laws.



If a society makes laws that are opposed to God's laws, then of course the believer must obey God's laws and disobey the laws of the society. This is elementary.

Will God be unhappy if a murderer is shown grace or given a sentence that does not take his/her life ?

It's disappointing to read that some or many here still believe that 9/11 was an act pulled off by Muslims from caves with Cessna training.

There is ample empirical and circumstantial evidence to show this cannot be so. Most pointedly, at 5:21 PM on the same day (Sept 11, 2001) World Trade Center Building 7 collapsed to the ground in 6.5 seconds. (Almost free fall) 47 stories which were NOT hit by an airplane, yet fell in the same symmetrical fashion as did the Twin Towers just hours earlier. All three buildings collapsed in the same way. Except with Building 7, the firefighters knew it was coming down and were ordered out. Then the order was given to "pull it."

But this third tower (WTC 7) was across the street, in a different block from the WTC complex, an entire football field (110 yds) from the closest Twin Tower. The fall of WTC Building 7 was never mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report.

If a 47 story office building collapsed in your city, would there not be an enquiry? Controlled demolition took down all three buildings.

Does it matter who took down the 3 towers? Of course, because targetting "Muslims" or Osama is a pretext for war, sending thousands of young men and women to their graves or permanent disability. (And often a shattered life when shunned by the Veterans Administration) Meanwhile entire countries are destroyed, even precious Iraq where God may have have placed the original Garden. And civilian populations decimated or worse.

Cui bono? Who benefits from war? Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon. All refining their tools to eliminate seventh-day worshippers - soon to be labelled 'terrorists'.

Many Western troops realize these are illegal wars in Iraq & Afghanistan. Among the bravest are those who refuse to fight. They deserve our support and prayers, usually facing court martial for an act of defiance sanctioned both by the American Constitution and the law of God.

Hey Gordon... you're a bit late with the conspiracy theories. :)

But I agree with the part about this not being a good war and all.

Hi Sivart - you highlight an irony amongst Adventists - As a people (historically) we've spent millions or billions trying to convince our neighbour and the world of the most incredible conspiracy of time & eternity - which will affect the salvation of billions.

Imagine that Satan will actually impersonate the Christ of God and almost the entire world will be deceived into receiving the mark of the beast (!) We teach & believe this by faith alone, with only the signs of the times as evidence.

We expect others to believe this, yet can't unravel a few broken buildings and the most obvious and repeated human artifice - contrived patriotism and calls to war.


But don't miss the point Sivart - why are these wars 'not good and all' (illegal)? - Because there is no evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq or Afghanistan. Both countries have been invaded without just cause - and so Muslims become fair game based on media gut-reaction and govt. propaganda. Muslims and 'terrorists' are the perfect state enemies - the 'threat' will never disappear and so the security industry stays well-oiled until the time of persecution.

The regime in power now is going out of it's way not to call any muslim a terrorist. In fact they have even removed the phrase "muslim extremist" from all government language. When the muslim extremist (terrorist) killed all those people at the military base, they tried to say: "Oh this was just an isolated incident. Not muslim extremism."

Since when have you been privy to confidential evidence from the United States national security offices (i.e., FBI, CIA) given to the President of the US?

Countries with its borders are man made and man has also invented the means(war) to protect these countries they created. God does not condone war but he does use man made devices to achieve His own plan. That does not mean he approves of the methods used. Less greed less war. The war on "terror" was just an excuse to gain world domination and control of resource. Ghandi came a lot closer to what Jesus was talking about.

I don't think that's true. If a Christian believes that all fighting is wrong, he's free to make his case. I wouldn't tell him not to express his convictions.



Who is telling you or anyone else that you can't say fighting is wrong?

Whether you are right to say that ALL fighting is wrong is another story-- but that is not the same as saying you can't express what you believe.



Yes, and this has been stated already on this thread.



Individual Christians should do what Jesus said and love their enemies. We're commanded to forgive the evils that people to do us, but that doesn't mean that forgiven people don't have to pay the the price of their evil choices.

You can't expect worldly governments to act as an individual Christian is supposed to act. For instance, what would have happened if England or the USA had merely forgiven Hitler or the Japanese for their invasions into other people's territories?

If that had happened, there's an excellent probability that today you and millions of others would be under the power of either the Japanese or the Nazis.

Governments have a responsibility to enforce laws and protect its citizens.

The world is a dangerous place, and governments must deal with this hard reality.