Not sure that I'm following you, bravus. Are you saying that the 'miracles' described in the Bible must be that and not a natural event interpreted as such because people did not understand nature as we do today?

Yes, that's it. A miracle kind of by definition has to be a supernatural event. If it's merely a natural event misinterpreted, it's not a miracle at all. Then Jesus was not really dead and wasn't really raised, and as Paul said, we are 'of all people most miserable'.

I would understand a miracle to also include divine manipulation of natural laws and events. That we do not know of supernatural laws and supernatural means of harnessing or manipulating them does not diminish my view and understanding of events and actions beyond my comprehension as miraculous. To ancient man, television or airplanes or computers or ... would seem nothing short of supernatural magic, miracles, if you will.

Some time ago I watched a fascinating documentary on the History Channel "explaining" plausible "natural" causes of the plagues in Egypt prior to the exodus of the Israelites. I am not troubled that God could harness the forces of nature to his purposes.

Tom

True, but if He really can create universes with a word, creating a heap of water and then vanishing it again would be easy-peasy. And so on. And if he can't, then how do we distinguish His judgements from simple natural disasters. Presumably you don't believe Katrina was to punish America... why not? You see the problem?

A massive meteor shower during the flood is plausible. It certainly would help explain all the craters on the Moon. The mountain ranges that exist today probably did not exist prior to the Flood. The Flood was likely a tectonic event which started in motion the forces that would create the world's mountain ranges.

I am inclined to accept without being troubled that events described in the Bible and attributed to God's judgment or action were natural events which God merely used for his purposes. I think ancient men blamed or credit him for many things, as we do today, that were not necessarily or directly his doing. The Bible was written by men from their point of view and not by God from his point of view. We have a hint of his perspective at times, as in Job, but mostly it is written by men. From their perspective, as devote believers in God, willingly credited God for things they otherwise could not explain or understand.

But it is not that God is the detached and uninvolved Deity sitting idle on his throne watching passively all that unfolds. I have often said that I believe that God is the undisputed master of taking absolutely anything no matter how bad, useless or disastrous and using it for his purposes - a sows ear into a silk purse of divine cosmic proportions. I think it quite plausible that God could see a massive asteroid on a collision course with earth, more than 120 years travel distance out, that would unleash a life changing chain of events that would completely alter earth's climate, weather, atmosphere, tectonic plates, axis, natural balance and even the course of its natural history. God could make a choice to divert it and save earth a cosmic disaster of complete destruction leaving mankind utterly unaware of his intervention. Or he could seek to warn those who were open to him and listening to trust him with a rescue in which they could make a simple choice to believe and trust Him even in the face of completely unforseen and unknowable future global disaster.

Or it could have happened exactly as the words Moses wrote down of the oral history handed down through the generations of his ancestors, the ancient people of the Middle East. Either way, my faith in God is unmoved and unshaken.

Just wondering aloud*: Would these natural events also include creation, itself? Is God a Divine Opportunist?
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* No response needed nor requested.

Bravus, I would go along with TW's explanation about miracles. I have read several books making a case for natural events being the cause in ancient history. I came to the conclusion, they did not rule out God, because they were natural events. I think christianity wants all miracles so that they may have less faith in science. I see God and the laws of science, physics, etc, as co-existing...I certainly don't understand them all!!!

The way I see this is that God works within His own laws - both moral and physical. Can't help it if we aren't aware of all of His laws, at least not yet anyway.

Now if He decides to do one of His platonic wonders, like thinking or speaking stuff into existence, I say "good for God!" It's interesting to note that God "said" everything into existence until He "made" man, then He "planted" the Garden.

I could never figure out why and how God did stuff? I simply categorize it to His inscrutability and leave it at that.

But back to my initial premise - I have a gut feeling that this planet wasn't always looking like it does now and if EGW is correct about the importance of electricity and magnetism (Einstein was curious about these things also) then just maybe my axis hypothesis might have some "juice" to it?

Note: "juice" as in electric current - did you get it?

Alex