There have been many attempts at explaining why there is suffering in this world and none of them as really explained it to any satisfaction.

For background I suggest you read the current blogalogue on beliefnet between Bart Erhman and N.T. Wright. I will provide links to the first two exchanges. You can go on to the others at beliefnet.

Bart Erhman: Why suffering is God's problem.

N.T. Wright: God's Plan to Rescue Us.

I welcome any original Christian ideas around this problem (in fact any ideas around this would be welcome)...

I wonder what role suffering has in our lives? Is it simply a consequence of bad things that happen to us? Poor choices? Punishment? Teaching us a lesson(s)? And why is suffering so banal at times

It usually doesn't announce itself with a flourish, sometimes it sneaks up on us, even plays with us and sadly for some it kills us. All sorts of questions derive from the very existence of suffering. Whole religions have grown up around suffering as ultimate meaning and ultimate resolution to man's problems.

I've thought at times that God was using suffering as an attention-getter to speak to me as directly as he can without doing that "Moses: let me see you" thing. So now that a very good friend of mine is suffering, I ask "why?" Most theologians and philosophers will say a lot but it reduces itself to basically "because."

All this suffering and an all loving God makes things tricky for Christians.

All this suffering and no one in charge makes this either completely inscrutable or perfectly logical for atheists/agnostics.

Just wonderin'

Alex

Seems that "suffering" is on the loose. With me , It has gotten personal and our normal rationalizations, explanations and theological babble isn't cutting it for me.

Sorry for the rant. Suffering is clearly here to stay!

Alex

CARDW

if WE believe that there is a war going on like
the bible says then we will have a good power or
force and a bad(evil) power or force...

the BIBLE says in JAMES 1: 17 every good gift
and every perfect gift come from above
so who is above???? GOD---JESUS---HOLY SPIRIT
so were does the bad(evil) come from
well the opposing force which is the devil and his
demons.....I would put suffering in the group

so good things GOD bad thing the devil

now with this said some time we people just
make foolish mistakes that will cause us suffering

so where does suffering come from

mostly from the devil but some times just from
our foolish mistakes

I HOPE this might help

dgrimm60

CARDW

GOD is in the saving business---the devil is in the
distorying business

and to answer you question were was GOD durning all
these sufferings.....the same place HE was when JESUS
was hanging on the cross


dgrimm60

Alex,

I think your "rant" captures the soul of this problem. Thanks for making it real.

dgrimm,

Enigmatic statements about god being present while Jesus was on the cross are ultimately unsatisfying because an all powerful god standing by while suffering occurs on levels like that are sickening.

God is either powerless or incompetent or masochistic. And none of those is a characteristic of someone we should admire.

Empathy informs us that when someone with the power to relieve suffering on that scale stands by, that person is evil.

I don't think Christianity has the solution to the problem of suffering. Only God can solve it, and God has revealed to people in the past how He is working to solve it. But according to His revelation, suffering will continue and even get worse before it finally ends. So while Christianity has good explanations of how suffering began and how it will end, Christianity itself can't stop suffering.

The problem of suffering, though, is directly connected to the problem of sin, and until people understand that, they aren't ready to understand what God has done and is doing about suffering. Many people only want to get rid of the pain without treating or solving the underlying cause, that of sin. I would define sin as anything which is contrary to God's will and His laws. God made the universe with both natural and moral law, and when we go against either of those laws, we suffer the consequences.

God's can't solve the problems of suffering, and death in a way that violates our individuality and freedom of choice. In other words, He refuses to treat us as puppets or change us against our will. It would do no good to stop all suffering while people are still choosing to sin and rebel against God's laws. To do so would be only to ensure that people would go on sinning. And if God were to change His laws so that man could sin without suffering, he wouldn't see anything wrong in sin.

For me, suffering is the result of a mean-spirited, evil Satan having his way.

So much of the time we flatter ourselves that what the Bible terms "sin" feels good to ourselves, when the end of it is desolation and suffering.

God knows that there are innocent victims. But he allowed people the freedom to choose anyway. I wonder if we appreciate just how big that gift is.

I don't think Christianity solves the problem of suffering, but it can try to alleviate it. I think of Mother Teresa and all the good she did for the suffering.

Good Point Rudywoofs.

I really believe Mother Teresa was a 'saint' and an example of what Christianity is all about.

John,

The whole reason that something is considered wrong is because it causes suffering. So if sin didn't cause suffering, then it wouldn't be sin.

This focus on God's law as just being something we have to follow permeates the reasoning of Christians. If a law has no rational basis then its not a law.

Simply saying that God will solve it ignores the fact that we have no evidence that there is a god or the motives and plans of this god. Many people claim to know things they can't possibly know.

And the reason most explanations for suffering are unsatisfactory is because they are trite, irrational, and ultimately too simple.

Read the links I provided to get up to speed on this issue so we don't have to address things that have already been refuted.

I think, for some, Christianity can relieve suffering. For others it increases suffering. I can illustrate both.

On a personal level this issue is quite disturbing, so I can understand why some would want to have simple direct solutions to alleviate the feelings that come when we realize the scale of irrational suffering on this planet.

I think there is something to be said for learning how to make it through the suffering, because everyone on the planet has to face a crisis of meaning.

What I know of this process is that after looking into the abyss, Christianity was not the relief I was looking for. It did provide a tighter focus on what I wanted to dedicate my life to and I feel grateful to be in a profession that helps to relieve suffering. I am under no illusions that I can relieve all suffering, but there is something about the engagement with other people's suffering that brings a new awareness to what it means to be alive.

I think the claims of Christians about the wonderfulness of god fall on jaded ears because of the level of suffering that has been allowed by this so called all powerful god throughout the centuries. And it is trite to suggest that the Devil did all the bad things. God certainly has committed sins of omission by standing by. And suffering along with everybody really is only god making himself a victim, which doesn't really demonstrate love at all since god has the power to stop it. Think about it. My son falls down and skins his knee. Instead of cleaning the wound, putting antiseptic on it, and comforting him I go out and fall down and skin my own knee. How nuts is that?

And the freedom of choice doesn't cover the scale of suffering. I think we might have gotten the point a few billion people ago.

We are then caught in the untenable position of being blamed when things go bad and god getting the credit when things go well.

Dear Friends,

Yes, I know what it means to suffer having been betrayed by one whom I thought loved me deeply. I know what it means to have your soul literally ripped apart as you grapple with the pain of betrayal. When children are killed or die, or bad things happen to good people. When a nephew dies at a young age from cancer. Then it is easy to question the existence of God or His compassion when you found yourself in the midst of terrible pain. The answers seem trite when your world has gone dark, and there seems to be no reason to continue to live much less to believe.

But God is love. There is no more profounder truth. And God is wise. He knows what must be done even when it will be misunderstood by a world in rebellion. God has an entire universe which has been placed in jeopardy because a being decided that he was wiser than God; who desires to be God, and desires to take the place of God. And now He has an entire world which is in total rebellion.

But He has a universe populated by intelligent beings; intelligent because He gave them brains with which to discern truth and light and darkness and falsehood. He created His own problem by giving them thought and the ability to choose based upon that thought. The whole universe could slide into oblivion and chaos and sorrow and pain and deep heartache; the whole universe could slide into futility and death if He did not handle this rebellion with care, compassion, and wisdom. In addition, when it is all said and done and finished, He must live with the results of His decisions. And even more importantly, all who remain must live knowing how God handled this problem. A government based upon the principles of love and intimacy would be in jeopardy if He made one wrong decision. The outcome of eternity would be based upon His handling of the rebellion.

But we do have a God who lives His life in principles of love and intimacy. He does nothing outside of those principles. He can be counted upon to remain the same yesterday, today, and on into the future. He will not deviate from those principles. The law which He created is the very principles by which He lives every moment of His existence.

It causes Him much grief to see the pain and suffering which come as a result of the rebellion. And I suspect there are many times when His desire would be to end the rebellion. But in His infinite wisdom, He knows to do so would only guarantee a return to rebellion at some point of time in the future. He knows that only when all the minds in the universe are satisfied that breaking the principles of God result in suffering can He bring this rebellion to a close. When He brings the rebellion to a close, it will be when He knows that all are satisfied that rebellion must never again raise its ugly head. For the peace and security of the universe in the future, He must now allow suffering and pain and death to continue in order that all will be fully convinced that only through God's principles can there be true happiness and peace and love.

If we desire to glorify God then we must live through personal suffering in order that all may see that a life lived according to God's plans can still bring peace to the soul. It is as we handle the personal pain in our lives through the power of God that we indicate that God is not the source of our pain. Sin and rebellion are the cause of pain and suffering even that which is caused without intent to cause pain or by stupidity and foolishness.

But if we blame God for that which is the responsibility of another, then we do not know God. God does not cause pain; He would have us live in an environment where the principles of love and intimacy are supreme. But He must allow each of us to live with the results of sin even though we are innocent (which we are not) in order that the universe can have an adequate understanding of the consequences of sin. Only when it is completely comprehended by all what are the consequences of breaking the principles of love and intimacy will He be able to bring to a close this rebellion. There must not be any doubt in anyone's mind the necessity for bringing to an end the existence of those who refuse to follow the principles of love and intimacy. There must not be any doubt by anyone that God's laws and words and actions are based upon those principles of love and intimacy.

It is Satan who is responsible for all pain and suffering. But we are held responsible for the sin and resultant suffering we bring because of our own perversity. When we are caught in pain and suffering and complain, let us not forget how we are also a source of pain and suffering through our own actions. Until you are willing to acknowledge that your own actions cause pain and suffering to others, you will never understand the need for God to allow us to experience pain and suffering. When we confess our sins but do not acknowledge that our own sins have caused pain and suffering for others then we do not understand the true message of pain and suffering. As we receive pain and suffering because of the sin of others, let us remember that our own sins also had their own dire consequences. Pain and suffering should remind us that sin has consequences; we need to reason from cause to effect. When a father sexually abuses his child, it brings consequences which have long-lasting effects not only upon the child, but for many generations to follow. When you see or hear or experience venereal disease, remember that God created a perfect world in which there was no blight. But because sinful man decided that sex outside of marriage was good, we now have a transmitted sexual disease. And we now must live with the blight.

So, when you desire to blame God for sin and suffering, you need to look upon yourself because, when you sin, you will bring pain and suffering unto others. As Paul declares to us, "Do not be deceived. God is not mocked. That which we sew; we will also reap." By not being a force against sin, we become a partner with those who do sin. God did not cause pain and suffering; we did when we sinned and rebelled against the principles of love and intimacy. We need to recognize that sin and suffering are the consequences of our rebellion. So the blame is not God's; He has warned us. But it is our choices which have brought all this pain which is in the world.

The choice is now ours. Do we continue to blame God? Or do we take responsibility for our sin and the consequences which come as a result? We are not guiltless.

Sincerely,
The Seeker

Inspirational speech and all, the fact remans that there really is no evidence that any god is helping us out. Believing that there is a god out there that is eventually going to make everything right is one way to deal with this, but it is certainly not based on evidence. And quoting the text that says faith is evidence of things unseen doesn't cut it.

Embracing the idea that we don't know is the truth. Christians keep claiming to know things they can't possibly know. Christians have simply been too harmful through the violence inflicted on their fellow human beings throughout the last 2000 years to let Christianity be defended through these vague emotional appeals. To coin a phrase, the devil is in the details. And it could not be more true with Christian claims and beliefs.

I think it is far more fruitful to face the fact that there is no one out there helping us and hopefully this will inspire us to take personal responsibility, treat each other better, and work to reduce the suffering on this planet. And don't give me this idea that this imaginary god is going to do it so much better because no one knows this. For now, humanity is all we have and it has done some rather remarkable things, along with some rather harmful things, even though it is not perfect. I can say the same for the god of the OT, except the list of remarkable things is rather short since the majority of this god's actions involve violence.

In most cases the forgiveness of god is used to avoid personal responsibility instead of making amends as best we can and change how we behave. It's insipid how Christianity is essentially a belief of loop holes and Christians throw their hands up and assume that everyone will just keep on being sinners and doing bad things. This mental gymnastics bypasses normal human empathy and is why we see such ugly behavior from devout Christian believers.

The problem of suffering is far greater than emotional appeals to the unknown.

Think that forgiveness is avoiding personal responsibility is not a correct assumption. Asking God for forgivness and not accepting responsibility to make amends and change behaviour is not what a belief in God produces. They would be opposites. Can not assume a forgivness from God without the other. If someone calling themself Christian claims such, they are false.

That is not to say it doens't happen, being human and all!

Hmm . . . ? Nothing I know in this life "solves" the problem of suffering but Christianity sure provides a few answers to "why" we have the suffering.

Just like any other mythology (I'm not saying Christianity is a myth, although some regard it as that) we create reasons, whether they can be proven or not, to explain the inexplicable.

Alex (just trying to break this down to the lowest common denominator)

I don't know if Christianity actually answers why we have suffering. I think we can observe why suffering occurs by observation, because we certainly know how to prevent and reduce certain types of suffering.

There is a whole class of suffering that is simply the result of entropy, natural disasters, disease, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I can understand why Christian thinkers would want to answer why through the inclusion of the devil and sin.

Sin doesn't answer it because we see death and destruction in the whole visible universe. If death didn't happen on this planet we would soon be overrun. So death is part of this universe's cycle of survival.

And the devil is as unprovable as god. Plus the whole test is weighted in favor of the devil. Do you actually believe it was a fair test to place what is reported to be the smartest being in the universe against the youngest beings in the universe. I look at how easy it is to trick a child even when I was only 10 years older. The idea that a being possibly trillions of years old against humans simply dooms humanity to fail.

When we view the natural cycles of life as bad, it makes it much more difficult to accept.

When we accept that life is difficult, it makes it less difficult. This is even the view of Christian writer Scott Peck in his book, "The Road Less Travelled."