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#269592 - 2009-08-29 14:42:36 Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Christ
cardw Offline


Registered: 2002-02-22
Posts: 3578
Loc: CA
Here is a short summary of this problem...
Quote:
In a court of law, a charge of plagiarism may be supported by evidence of the general dishonesty of that person. And, no greater evidence could be produced than the testimony of church fathers themselves. By their own admissions, they show themselves to be destitute of honesty.

Lactantius, a Christian apologist of the 4th century, wrote: "Among those who seek power and gain from religion, there will never be wanting an inclination to forge and lie for it." Quoted by C. Middleton, Misc. Works of Conyers Middleton, D.D., vol. 3, p. 51 (1752)

Gregory of Nazanzius, a 4th century church father and bishop of Caesarea, wrote to St. Jerome: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire." Quoted by C. Volney, The Ruins, p. 177 (1872).

Angustine of Hippo, the greatest figure in Christian antiquity, wrote: "It is lawful, then, to him that discusses, disputes and preaches of things eternal, or to him that narrates of things temporal pertaining to religion or piety, to conceal at fitting times whatever seems fit to be concealed." Augustine, On Lying, c. 19

Eusebius, a 4th century Bishop and ecclesiastical historian, wrote that he unscrupulously suppressed all that would be a disgrace to early Christianity. Ecclesiastical History, vol. 8, c.21.

Edward Gibbon confirms this. He writes: "The gravest of all the ecclesiastical historians, Eusebius himself, indirectly confesses that he has related whatever might redound to the glory, and that he has suppressed all that would tend to the disgrace, of religion. Such an acknowledgement will naturally excite a suspicion that a writer who has so openly violated one of the fundamental laws of history has not paid a very strict observation of the other." E. Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, c. 16 (1883).

None other than Paul of Tarsus admits of trickery (2 Cor. 12.16), imposture (1 Cor. 9.19-20), and deception. He wrote: "For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" Romans 3.7 (King James Version)

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)"
Carl Sagan
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Rich
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#269748 - 2009-08-30 08:57:41 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Christ [Re: cardw]
dgrimm60 Online   content


Registered: 2001-08-19
Posts: 31389
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY CARDW


SOME seem to be saying that they did cover up truth

but some seem to be giving us a warning about such
cover ups


dgrimm60

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#269750 - 2009-08-30 09:11:08 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Christ [Re: dgrimm60]
Twilight Offline


Registered: 2009-02-18
Posts: 4605
The Christian principle is not to lie.

But there are times to hold back the "truth".

They are not the same thing.

Mark
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The best wisdom is always second hand...

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#269877 - 2009-08-30 15:42:56 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Ch [Re: dgrimm60]
cardw Offline


Registered: 2002-02-22
Posts: 3578
Loc: CA
Quote:
but some seem to be giving us a warning about such
cover ups


I think you need to correct that to one is giving us a warning. All the others are justifying it.

And you may note that the justification today is just as alive. Note the comment by Mark (Twilight)
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#269878 - 2009-08-30 15:45:03 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Ch [Re: Twilight]
cardw Offline


Registered: 2002-02-22
Posts: 3578
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Twilight
The Christian principle is not to lie.

But there are times to hold back the "truth".

They are not the same thing.

Mark


I think you need to give an example.

Now the Church Fathers I am quoting are not only holding back the truth, they are either exaggerating it or telling lies outright. I can give you numerous examples of this.
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Rich
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#269882 - 2009-08-30 15:54:36 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Ch [Re: cardw]
Twilight Offline


Registered: 2009-02-18
Posts: 4605
Originally Posted By: cardw
Originally Posted By: Twilight
The Christian principle is not to lie.

But there are times to hold back the "truth".

They are not the same thing.

Mark


I think you need to give an example.

Now the Church Fathers I am quoting are not only holding back the truth, they are either exaggerating it or telling lies outright. I can give you numerous examples of this.


I cannot comment on an individuals practice of lying until the evidence is presented.

But the principle is the key.

Example:

A young girl comes to you with a scarred face and asks you if you think she is pretty.

1. Yes you are pretty. (Lie).
2. Say nothing and talk about something else (Hold back the truth).


Holding back the truth is not lying, it is just not expressing the truth at that time because it would be inappropriate.

Mark :-)
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#269907 - 2009-08-30 18:55:20 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Ch [Re: Twilight]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 2000-03-24
Posts: 27349
Loc: Deltona,FL,USA
Also take for instance Rahab, when asked about the 2 Israelite spies, said she had seen them but that they left and didn't know where they went. Not sure that's what you had in mind. But I don't believe that God wants us to lie for him.

pk
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phk

"And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
John F Kennedy

"Government is the enemy, until you need a friend".
Bill Cohen

Many people consider the things government does for them to be social progress but they regard the things government does for others as socialism.
Earl Warren

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#269961 - 2009-08-30 21:13:51 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Ch [Re: Twilight]
cardw Offline


Registered: 2002-02-22
Posts: 3578
Loc: CA
Quote:
A young girl comes to you with a scarred face and asks you if you think she is pretty.

1. Yes you are pretty. (Lie).
2. Say nothing and talk about something else (Hold back the truth).


Well, I think the girl would have to be rather dull to not pick up the answer from that 2nd scenario. Personally I have found it much better to address those types of questions more authentically than that.

Plus, this is talking about something that is subjective. Supposedly when one talks about Christianity we are talking about the truth. An attitude, as expressed by some of the Church fathers, that keeps the masses in ignorance is not about love or truth, but control. I think that is still evident within modern Christianity as well.

I think you need to give an example of how the gospel needs to withhold the truth.
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#269964 - 2009-08-30 21:15:18 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Ch [Re: pkrause]
cardw Offline


Registered: 2002-02-22
Posts: 3578
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: pkrause
Also take for instance Rahab, when asked about the 2 Israelite spies, said she had seen them but that they left and didn't know where they went. Not sure that's what you had in mind. But I don't believe that God wants us to lie for him.

pk


No, since that is about self preservation not the control of information about so called truth as given to the masses.
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Rich
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#269966 - 2009-08-30 21:17:24 Re: Christian Church fathers admit to telling lies for the cause of Ch [Re: cardw]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 2000-03-24
Posts: 27349
Loc: Deltona,FL,USA
Gottcha cardw

pk
_________________________
phk

"And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
John F Kennedy

"Government is the enemy, until you need a friend".
Bill Cohen

Many people consider the things government does for them to be social progress but they regard the things government does for others as socialism.
Earl Warren

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