The Woman of Rev.12:

1. She is a sign in Heaven. Sign=symbol. A symbol represents something literal. A symbol cannot represent another symbol.

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

2. She is pregnant about to give birth. Question: to whom is she going to give birth? This also means that she is going to be a mother. And unless the child to be born is illegitimate she is married and someone's wife.

She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.  

5. She gave birth to her child, who by definition is the Son of God-which means His dad is God the Father.

She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

Therefore the Woman must be the wife of God the Father in order for her to be the mother of the Son of God. Jesus Christ was not illegitimate because He had a real Father and a Real Mother.

God the Father will never marry the 'church', because the 'church is to be the future bride of Jesus Christ. It is the 'church' that Jesus Christ is coming back to the earth to get.

17. What is the true identity of this Woman?

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Here are the undisputed facts:
She is a sign in Heaven that represents something literal.
She is a woman (feminine characteristics)
She is pregnant
She is therefore someone's wife
Her Son is Jesus Christ
Her husband is therefore God the Father
Jesus is their legitimate offspring (hence the sanctity of marriage-if it is necessary for God and we are created in Their image male and female, then marriage is necessary for us).
She gives birth to other legitimate children by the same Mother and Father as Jesus Christ.
The Woman cannot be the 'church' because the 'church is to become the bride of Christ not the bride of the Father.
The Father and the Son cannot marry the same woman.
The 'church' did not give birth to Jesus Christ, that would make Jesus Christ illegitimate and be blaspheme.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6.

Becoming born again means being born of the water (physical birth) and the Spirit (spiritual birth).

The Spirit that gives birth to all who will be in the family of God is the Holy Spirit - This is the Woman of Rev. 12.

If this is incorrect then please show me how. Just because most Christian churches believe that the Woman of Rev.12 is the church does not make it so. Marriage IS NOT a metaphor to God.

One final thought; the church on earth was established by men, NOT by God. Jesus did not come to establish a church, He came to testify to the truth. The church does not have the spiritual power or authority to give birth to anyone. This is a Catholic church idea. It is not the power of the church that saves us, it is the power of the fact that we are born of God that saves us. If the church is indeed the Woman of Rev. 12 then the church (Catholic and Protestant) gave birth to Jesus Christ and again this is blaspheme. Also, when Jesus Christ was born (Mary as surrogate birth mother) the 'church' did not exist, so how could the church accomplish the birth of Jesus Christ when it was not yet in existence?

Ron, I couldn’t agree with you more. By any chance did you read what musicman wrote a while ago on this issue? He did a great job explaining why the woman of Rev. 12 is the Holy Spirit. You can look up that post because it is about the same as my research.

What is your argument on the women being in heaven as found in verse 1?

What is your argument on the church giving birth to Jesus in verses 2-5 and especially 13?

What is your argument on the church having offspring—isn’t the church still the church?

Did you see that every word for “spirit” in the old testament is a feminine noun? Did you read where Jesus said everyone who wants into the Kingdom of Heaven MUST be born of the Holy Spirit? Jesus NEVER called Mary His mother or ‘mom’! He always called her “woman”.

Luke 1:35 has both the Spirit AND the Most High placing Jesus into Mary.

And don’t forget that mankind were created both male and female after “OUR LIKENESS” (God’s likeness).

Musicman1228, you said: "A symbol cannot represent another symbol."

Symbols can be interchangeable. Look at Rev. 1:20: "The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches...." The angels in turn represent the messengers of God's word--the ministerial leadership of the seven churches. Thus the very first rule you claim governs the interpretation of Bible prophecy is shown to be untrue.

You are being tedious, asserting things that are not necessarily so. You are being entirely too convoluted in your reasoning. Just take the symbols as God has set them, and as Scripture defines them. Then accept them, without quibbling. You seem to be criticizing the way God Himself chooses to use His prophetic symbols.

You are quibbling about how the church can be the husband of Christ and also give birth to Him. I have told you twice already that the woman represents the church THROUGH ALL THE AGES. The community of God's people who constituted the Church in the Old Testament, were also represented by the symbol of a woman: "I have likened the daughter of Zion To a lovely and delicate woman." (Jeremiah 6:2)

Was not Jesus born of an Israelite woman, who was part of the Old Testament Church? She also became a member of the New Testament Church.

You claimed that the Old Testament "woman" who represented the church then was the wife of God the Father. Who then is the husband of the New Testament church? The New Testament plainly presents the church as the bride of Christ. (See Eph. 5:27-32.) You would have God the Father married to one, and Jesus married to the other. This is nonsense.

The interpretation I have given you of Rev. 12:1 explains all the symbols with perfect consistency, perfectly in harmony with the way these symbols are used throughout Bible prophecy. Your interpretation is only a private interpretation.

Dr. Rich, I have already answered your questions.

The man Jesus Christ only has one mother and that is Mary his human mother. The Holy Spirit is not the wife of God the Father. There is nothing in the Bible to support the idea that the Holy Spirit is female.

You did? Where? And are you assuming that Mary joined a church somewhere? BTW--are not the 'nation/king of the North and the Nation/king of the South both evil as found in Daniel? So tell me, what makes the Christian religion evil?

I am shaking my head. Oh well, who cares here anyway?

Paul predicted there would be an apostasy in the church, involving someone claiming to represent Christ, before Jesus returns. See 2 Thess. 2:3-12.

In every age, Satan has always tried to hijack whatever organizations served the people of God. That does not mean the solution is to dispense with organization. But we must remember that Jesus is the true Head of the church.

Robert,
It is by going through Scripture and being tedious with the details that we find truth. No one said that would be easy or exciting.

I believe that I am taking the symbols EXACTLY as they read in the text. You continue to insist that the Woman is the church throughout the ages and I insist that the Woman is the Holy Spirit that leads the 'church' to righteousness throughout the ages. Which is a more correct? Who knows. We are in a search for truth, and that search can take many forms. I admire you for your effort, just as I hope you admire my effort. There are so few people on earth to which any of this matters that for us to get personal in any way seem ridiculous.

In the effort: Please show me where the 'church' existed before the first century church. Israel did not exist as an autonomous nation until c.1430-40 B.C.E. so what form did the 'church' take before that?

The Holy Spirit has been around since before Creation. It is the Holy Spirit that leads the church (hopefully) not the other way around.

Just because mainstream Christianity believes that the Woman of Rev.12 is the church does not make it so. That was of believing is a tradition of the church, and tradition is not always the most authoritative way to find truth.

"Political and religious systems use Tradition as a means of mind-conditioning and control. Tradition firmly establishes a belief system that prevents or inhibits the discovery of the Truth. What these Traditions stand for are used to keep the truth hidden in order to maintain control over the masses, because if the people rejected Tradition and thereby discovered the truth these systems would loose control. Tradition and Truth are inversely proportional."

Tradition is what kept the Catholic church in power during the Dark Ages, and even now control over 1 1/2 billion people. Tradition is what kept the Sanhedrin in power in the time of Christ, against which He fought and which eventually led to His being hung on the cross. Tradition is one of the main things that Christ pointed out as leading to error and sin.

For me when I look at politics I look for the money trail. When I look at religion I look for the tradition behind the belief and then search for truth in the opposite direction.

I meant to address that post to Ron. Sorry Robert.

It is so much simpler to let the Bible define all prophetic symbols. One Divine Mind is responsible for all of them in every prophecy. The Bible defines the prophetic symbol of a woman as meaning a church, or the Old Testament equivalent, the community of worshippers. This is the only thing the prophetic symbol of a woman can mean, therefore. To imagine it means anything else is rebellion against Divine Authority. The only modification is context, whether the woman is presented as pure or impure (a fallen church).

Whether a symbol is pictured as being "in heaven," is significant, too. The Bible teaches there are three heavens. The sky, where the birds fly (for ex. Jer. 7:33: "birds of heaven"), space, where the moon, stars, and planets are (for ex. Gen. 22:17), and heaven where God is. Paul says someone was caught up in vision into this "third heaven." (2 Cor. 12:2)

Examination of the way "heaven" is used in prophecy will show that the first heaven can be used as a symbolic reference to the third heaven. Thus the angels flying in the midst of heaven in Rev. 14 are faithful messengers who cooperate with divine and (third) heavenly agencies. But in Rev. 8:10 the angel that "falls from heaven" depicts a movement that may once have been faithful, but now has fallen from grace into apostasy. That this is true is confirmed by the dire effects this movement has on the earth, that it causes the "waters" to become bitter. (See Deut. 29:18)

I can present all these things not because I am clever or imaginative; but merely because I am careful to observe how the Divine Mind employs these symbols.

Ron, Does God live in Heaven? Now tell me the location of Heaven? We all agree that it is a 'place'-right? Rev. 12 1's heaven is a place--a specific place. Not the 'heavens' nor the '3rd heaven'. You might want to do a little research here by googling 'planet X'. Not that this IS heaven, but then it just might be too. While your researching this, check what some researchers believe what is going to happen in 2012.

Yes, the bible teaches a 3rd heaven, but then who wrote that? While you doing your search, google "Paul's Revelation" and spend some time reading what you find. What interested me is it answered many questions I had why the Catholic Church believed they way they do. Enjoy!

Dr. Rich (SDA)