#311720 - 2009-12-22 08:28:42
Re: New book
[Re: hch]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-11-24
Posts: 618
Loc: Reno, NV
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Hi, I'm not so sure re-writes in "modern English" is always a good idea. I already have a Steps To jesus that is ok with no doctrinal changes but the beauty of EGW's prose has been lost. What I'm afraid of is that re-writes of EGW will be watered down by liberals just as the liberal Bible versions have been. Here is a letter from the White Estate: By William Fagal The adapted (in some cases paraphrased) versions of Mrs. White’s writings have been authorized by the White Estate trustees, though not without some lively discussion. I think that all of the trustees would be glad to have people read Mrs. White’s writings in the “original.” As a group, they have been reluctant to sanction any change to the text. But in recent years it has become increasingly clear that more people, particularly younger people, are having trouble reading Mrs. White’s writings in the original, and so many of them are not reading them at all. The paraphrases and adaptations are an attempt to reach this group, to get them to see that there is value in the concepts these writings contain. Since we do not believe in a verbal dictation mode of inspiration, but a concept mode of inspiration, it is not contrary to our faith to try to express the same concepts in different words. And it is the hope of the trustees that once people are touched by the value in those concepts, they will be more willing to expend the extra effort required to read the original writings of Mrs. White. To avoid confusion with the original writings, paraphrases and adaptations are not given the same title as the original book. This should enable a reader to distinguish immediately between the original and the derived work. There is always a danger that a derived work will not get something quite right. I am keenly aware of this, as it has fallen to me to be the principal adapter on a Conflict Series adaptation we are preparing to go along with the Youth Sabbath School lessons. I have often struggled to find an appropriate word or phrase that will carry Mrs. White’s intent while being more understandable to a young person. And I submit my work to others for other suggestions, so it is not the work of just one person. This is how we try to maintain faithfulness to Mrs. White’s message. I have completed four of the five volumes and am about to start on the volume corresponding to The Great Controversy. In this series we began with the condensed Conflict volumes that were produced about 25 years ago, that used only Mrs. White’s words but fewer of them. This makes each volume shorter and less intimidating to a young person. Then we have used simpler sentence structure and substituted words where the originals would not read naturally to a young person. Even so, perhaps 80% or more of the words are Mrs. White’s, though sometimes in a different form (such as active voice rather than passive) or in a different word order. Our intent was to make it still sound a lot like Ellen G. White while lowering the entrance requirement for reading. We have also used mostly the New King James Version, because while it reads more easily for a young person, it still sounds much like the KJV that Mrs. White customarily used. We hope that this will function as a step up, an intermediate level, toward reading the original works. Paraphrases, such as Jerry Thomsas’s Messiah and the more recent Blessings, are not generally produced by the White Estate, though there was one paraphrase we produced for young people, called A Call to Stand Apart. A paraphrase is not tied as closely to the language of Mrs. White as an adaptation. There seems to be a need out there for books that will bring Mrs. White’s message into language people can more easily understand, for Messiah has sold about 100,000 copies. I have been a reluctant “convert” to this process. I can read Ellen White’s writings with no difficulty and be greatly blessed. But I have seen firsthand that a lot of people cannot. What is the solution? As you know, I can also read Greek and Hebrew (as well as Aramaic), and I am reading the New Testament through in Greek now. Because I can read it in Greek, shall I insist that everyone else should do so, too? After all, this is the language in which the New Testament was written. The answer to that is No, we should not insist that everyone must read the Bible in the original. And with any translation (even the KJV), there is the danger that something won’t be handled right. (Luke 24:43 comes to mind.) But we accept that danger for the greater good of improved understanding overall. I think there is a parallel to the adaptations of Mrs. White’s writings. I hope this will help. God bless! William Fagal Associate Director Ellen G. White Estate 12501 Old Columbia Pike Silver Spring, MD 20904-6600 U.S.A. Phone: 301 680-6550 FAX: 301 680-6559 http://www.WhiteEstate.org
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#311724 - 2009-12-22 08:51:00
Re: New book
[Re: dgrimm60]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-12-21
Posts: 607
Loc: Collegedale TN
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God's timing is perfect. He calls us to labor and He sets in motion things that will come into play when the timing is right.
When I wrote Defying Destiny, I could not follow the book of Daniel to George Bush. By 2001 (when the book was released), I partially understood GW in Daniel's prophecy, but I did not have a clue regarding President Obama. Once he was elected, the Lord brought the pieces together.
Through the process, The Lord gave me a personal 1843, 1844, and 1845 experience. It was heart wrenching to understand so much in Daniel and misunderstand the transition from Clinton to GW like the 1843 pioneers that expected Jesus to come and He did not. Then to learn so much about GW and miss the Obama transition. It was like the pioneers' 1844 all over again. Understanding so much from the book of Daniel to compile the study in Daniel's Apocalyptic Code Revealed, but missing a very important fact. But when prophecy and history met, the very fact that was out of focus, came into focus and a blessing followed: the book Put-Out The Light (2009). Thus my 1845 joy!
My only regret is that when the 10-Virgins awake (and they will), 5 will have failed to avail themselves of the needed preparation and be lost. All will awake. But 1/2 will be too late and as God has said in Hosea, My people perish for lack of knowledge!
The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy tells us just what we need to know as Christ's Advent is upon us, but we are too satisfied with generalizations of Bible prophecies and fail to dig deeper into the wellspring of prophecy to learn what we need to know as the hour draws near. The God that named Cyrus by name 100+ years before his birth and the One gave the day for the beginning of Christ's ministry in Heaven 2300-years before the fact has given us particulars that relate to our day that have fallen on deaf ears.
With God's calling and sustenance, I have done the research, written the books, prayed and fasted, and spent my last cent sounding the loud cry; but it is not by might or by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.
Thus I've reached the point in my experience where I've been out to gather a few sticks and my family still has some flour and some oil. We'll eat of the abundance that God supplies and praise Him whether He sees fit to multiply the rations or let them be consumed.
But in my 58-years, I have never died of starvation and my God has never abandoned me. So though none of our bills for December 2009 have been paid; I will accept whatever comes, I don't expect for one moment that it will be anything less than the blessings that God has saved up for such a time as this: abundantly exceedingly more than we can ask or think!
God's timing is perfect. He made the air and and food before there was a man to breath or eat. And had not my situation changed so drastically this month, I would not be boldly making an effort to sound the Loud Cry. But by my necessity, God is being praised! AMEN
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His child Henry
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#311736 - 2009-12-22 09:37:44
Re: New book
[Re: Steve Billiter]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-12-21
Posts: 607
Loc: Collegedale TN
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I read your note Steve about the rewrite of Steps to Christ with the letter from Bro. Fagal.
Once, the Review was very interested in the re-write Joy in Jesus but the editorial person that I was corresponding with, set it aside to meet some deadlines. When I did not hear back for months, I contacted her again. She was all apologies. It had gotten buried on her to do list. But at the time of my second contact, she had just accepted another position and was finishing all of he open projects and would not have time to peruse Joy in Jesus.
I then corresponded with Brother Fagal. He expressed an interest and assured me that he would get back to me on the rewrite when he got caught up with his to do list. It has been 3-5 years or more, and we have yet to get together.
In all, Joy in Jesus has been waiting for 20-years to see the light of day. I think that is long enough.
I shared it with a former SDA, who still holds EGW in warm regard. Her immediate response was, "How dare you tamper with a Christian Classic." After reading it, she was almost in tears. "I didn't think it could be any better than it was. Why did you wait so long to share it with me?"
So Steve, now that I know of your possible concerns (or fears)about rewriting Steps to Christ, I invite you to read Joy In Jesus. Settle the matter. Is this rewrite a good idea that will bless many people or is your worst fear being realized? Don't stay in doubt CHECK IT OUT!
Then PLEASE share your conclusions with the rest of us based on the facts. Assuming that assumptions can be so hurtful, perhaps the facts will heal a broken heart and set a captive free.
Please contact me for a free e-book Joy in Jesus (a rewrite of Steps To Christ)
I am new to this forum and it is the most difficult to navigate. I don't know all the ins and outs, but there must be a way for you or anyone to send me a private note if you choose to.
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His child Henry
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#311760 - 2009-12-22 11:15:31
Re: New book
[Re: hch]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-11-24
Posts: 618
Loc: Reno, NV
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hch, you can contact me through: stevebilliter@hotmail.com
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#311767 - 2009-12-22 12:02:42
Re: New book
[Re: hch]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-11-24
Posts: 618
Loc: Reno, NV
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God's timing is perfect. He calls us to labor and He sets in motion things that will come into play when the timing is right.
When I wrote Defying Destiny, I could not follow the book of Daniel to George Bush. By 2001 (when the book was released), I partially understood GW in Daniel's prophecy, but I did not have a clue regarding President Obama. Once he was elected, the Lord brought the pieces together.
Through the process, The Lord gave me a personal 1843, 1844, and 1845 experience. It was heart wrenching to understand so much in Daniel and misunderstand the transition from Clinton to GW like the 1843 pioneers that expected Jesus to come and He did not. Then to learn so much about GW and miss the Obama transition. It was like the pioneers' 1844 all over again. Understanding so much from the book of Daniel to compile the study in Daniel's Apocalyptic Code Revealed, but missing a very important fact. But when prophecy and history met, the very fact that was out of focus, came into focus and a blessing followed: the book Put-Out The Light (2009). Thus my 1845 joy!
My only regret is that when the 10-Virgins awake (and they will), 5 will have failed to avail themselves of the needed preparation and be lost. All will awake. But 1/2 will be too late and as God has said in Hosea, My people perish for lack of knowledge!
The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy tells us just what we need to know as Christ's Advent is upon us, but we are too satisfied with generalizations of Bible prophecies and fail to dig deeper into the wellspring of prophecy to learn what we need to know as the hour draws near. The God that named Cyrus by name 100+ years before his birth and the One gave the day for the beginning of Christ's ministry in Heaven 2300-years before the fact has given us particulars that relate to our day that have fallen on deaf ears.
With God's calling and sustenance, I have done the research, written the books, prayed and fasted, and spent my last cent sounding the loud cry; but it is not by might or by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.
Thus I've reached the point in my experience where I've been out to gather a few sticks and my family still has some flour and some oil. We'll eat of the abundance that God supplies and praise Him whether He sees fit to multiply the rations or let them be consumed.
But in my 58-years, I have never died of starvation and my God has never abandoned me. So though none of our bills for December 2009 have been paid; I will accept whatever comes, I don't expect for one moment that it will be anything less than the blessings that God has saved up for such a time as this: abundantly exceedingly more than we can ask or think!
God's timing is perfect. He made the air and and food before there was a man to breath or eat. And had not my situation changed so drastically this month, I would not be boldly making an effort to sound the Loud Cry. But by my necessity, God is being praised! AMEN hch, You will not find any particular president, nor will you find any particular current pope in Daniel. we do find King Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander the great. We find the papacy in general and its heads. The pope who received the deadly head wound is mentioned rather indirectly, and we know General Berthier under Napoleon was involved. The two-horned beast of Revelation 13 is the United States. That is also connected with apostate protestantism. I can see why the Review did not want to publish your book on Daniel(am I correct?) as it appears to be outside of correct Bible exegesis regarding prophetic events with the verification of historical events. We should never try to look beyond what God has revealed, and in me you will find a chief skeptic regarding new books that may depart from traditional Adventist pillars of faith.My question to you is, or perhaps a concern may be is this: The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2} I'm not saying your books fit this description, but I am highly skeptical. I do a lot of writing to. But all of my writing is done to uphold what is already written such as the KJV and its parallels, and EGW. We are warned over and over again not to enter into speculation and to not put our own spin on God's word. I have been literally stunned at the proliferation of recent Adventist books that tear down our faith under the guise of working for God. The abc store has become filled with fictions and books containing fables and human suppositions. The only book I would like to write at this time or really just a paper, would be an expose of Oswald Chambers the Great Evangelical Mystic. I can see the theology of the serpent in his book "My Utmost for His Highest" as clearly as day. I simply cannot see the point of pounding out book after book on different theology when we have more than enough to study for 1000 lifetimes already! Some write books exalting humanistic theories over the Bible also desiring to draw disciples after themselves. Jack Sequeria and Robert Wieland come to mind. I do understand there is a need for new books in some regards. "Truth Matters" by Herbert Douglass comes to mind. It is a review of the Purpose Driven Life Movement that I thought was good. As well as Tom Mosterts "Hidden Heresy" along the same lines. Both books upheld Adventist pillars of faith. As you may know, what we read,and what we believe, is what we become.
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#312233 - 2009-12-23 10:15:38
Re: New book
[Re: 'nuff sed]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-11-24
Posts: 618
Loc: Reno, NV
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I am aiming for the first part of 2010...but who knows?????
I had hoped to write one called. "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Baptistry" about some of the funny occurances at baptisms. I know that every pastor has had at least one or two. It was to be a compilation sort of like the "Chicken Soup" series................BUT........ I have received absolutely no help from SDA pastors in my solicitation for stories. I received more encouragement and offer of help from "The Fellowship of Merry Christians" than anybody else. I had, however, wanted to stick to Adventist pastors...Oh well.... Gladussee, I really don't think that God is amused when people make jokes about His church. that is why SDA pastors did not respond to you. If you think sacred things, Holy things, are joking matters, perhaps you can get a job with the Letterman Show, or Jay Leno. A man's character may be quite accurately estimated by the nature of his conversation. . . . Those who jest and joke and indulge in cheap conversation place themselves upon a level where Satan can gain access to them. . . . When you associate together, you may be a help and a blessing one to another if you surround yourselves with an influence that is divine. But there are those who have grave defects, which are gaining a deeper hold upon them and which if not overcome will drive the Spirit of God out of the heart. . . . Jesting and joking may please a class of cheap minds, and yet the influence of this kind of conduct is destructive to spirituality. I speak to you as a class and also as individuals: Guard your words. Let sobriety and sound common sense characterize your conversation. Do not trifle with the purity and nobility of your souls by condescending to indulgence in stale jokes, and in cultivating habits of trifling conversation. {OHC 292.2} The requirement of God is explicit on these points, and presents before you the obligations that rest upon you as children of God. The Word of God says, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Colossians 3:17. {OHC 292.3} In our mingling in society, in families or in whatever relations of life we are placed, either limited or extended, there are many ways wherein we may acknowledge our Lord and many ways wherein we may deny Him. We may deny Him in our words, by speaking evil of others, by foolish talking, jesting and joking, by idle or unkind words, or by prevaricating, speaking contrary to truth. In our words we may confess that Christ is not in us. In our character we may deny Him by loving our ease, by shunning the duties and burdens of life which someone must bear if we do not, and by loving sinful pleasure. We may also deny Christ by pride of dress and conformity to the world, or by uncourteous behavior. We may deny Him by loving our own opinions and by seeking to maintain and justify self. We may also deny Him in allowing the mind to run in the channel of lovesick sentimentalism and to brood over our supposed hard lot and trials. {CCh 81.2} 82 No one can truly confess Christ before the world unless the mind and spirit of Christ live in him. It is impossible to communicate that which we have not. The conversation and the deportment should be a real and visible expression of grace and truth within. If the heart is sanctified, submissive, and humble, the fruits will be seen outwardly and will be a most effectual confession of Christ. 93 {CCh 82.1}
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#312247 - 2009-12-23 11:03:39
Re: New book
[Re: Steve Billiter]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-12-21
Posts: 607
Loc: Collegedale TN
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HI Steve and all,
In answer to your question: no you are not correct. And in this format it is not possible to address every point raised in your note. That would take a book (it took 14-years to write it, so I won't attempt that here and now). And you raise some interesting questions and voice some real doubts that need to be settled in order to understand the meaning of Daniel that was shut-up until the time of the end.
What does the Bible say?
Daniel 7:17 is a great case in point.
"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."
Do you propose that God is confused? Or perhaps the pioneers knew everything about Bible prophecy that there is to know?
In Daniel 7's vision, did Daniel see 4-beasts arise from the earth or sea?
What does the Bible say?
"And four great beasts came up from the sea" (v. 3)
We know that God gathered the waters and called them seas (Genesis). And waters are defined in Revelation 17:15.
Why did Heaven's interpreter change the location from which the 4-beasts arise: from sea to earth in the interpretation (7:17)?
Since we know that the 4-beasts depict the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome: why did Heaven interpreter tell Daniel that the interpretation of the vision pertains to 4-kings instead of 4-kingdoms? That he specifically stated are to arise from the EARTH.
The 4-kingdoms were understood back in the 2nd century AD by Hippolitus of Rome. The 4-kingdoms sealed the authenticity of Daniel's prophecy. They arose as God had revealed to Daniel that they would arise, but their meaning was not "shut-up" OR "closed-up" (Daniel 12:4 & 9)until the time of the end that EGW clearly identifies as beginning in 1798.
And why is the identity of the 4th beast changed in the interpretation? Daniel saw the 4th beast with "iron teeth" (v. 7) BUT in the interpretation, he is identified as also having "brass nails"
"Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass" (v. 19).
Clearly the interpretation is changing facts set forth in the vision and expanding its endtime meaning. Kingdoms that are identified from Bible study and history are changed to kings in the endtime when Daniel is to beopened. The location from which they arise is changed in the interpretation from sea to earth. And the description of the 4th beast is changed form simply having iron teeth to also having brass nails.
Steve, superficial Bible study won't cut it.
"The evidence of the soon coming of Christ is right upon us, and many of us are asleep. We do not half gather up the important truths that are for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. If we did receive and believe the Word of God, we should be farther in advance spiritually than we are today. … We should fear to skim the surface of the Word of God. … We must sink the shaft deeper in the mines of truth." (3 1SAT 290.2)
So what is the truth of the 4-beast? Is he a kingdom or a king that shall arise from the earth?
Revelation 13 uses the same symbolism: SEA, LEOPARD, BEAR, LION, and EARTH. But in Daniel when the same symbols are encountered: SEA, LION, BEAR, LEOPARD, and EARTH; the earth is explained away as NOT BEING SYMBOLIC; but as depicting the nations of the earth or some such thing? Is that correct Bible exegesis?
Through that error of reinterpreting the earth in Daniel as literal rather than symbolic, it would appear that the sea in the vision is being defined as the literal earth. The symbolic sea is not the literal earth. They are different and Heaven is not making two different symbols to have the same meaning.
"The truth of God is progressive; it is always onward, going from strength to a greater strength, from light to a greater light. We have every reason to believe that the Lord will send us increased truth, for a great work is yet to be done. In our knowledge of truth, there is first a beginning in our understanding of it, then a progression, then completion…. Much has been lost because our ministers and people have concluded that we have had all the truth essential for us as a people; but such a conclusion is erroneous and in harmony with the deceptions of Satan; for truth will be constantly unfolding"
(ST, May 26, 1890 par. 2).
As I mentioned above, I'm not going to write the book "Put-Out The Light" here and now. Some will never look at the facts. They will embrace the teachings that they love, attempt to explain away every ray of light that they have not encountered previously, offer assumptions, and misstatements, and all sorts of opinions without looking at the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy from a perspective apart from that which they have been taught. We encounter this problem when we try to point out our peculiar truths to people of other denominations, should we be surprised when we encounter that problem with the saints that have the truth? We lament the fact that the Jews would not accept Christ for the most part. We study 1888 with zeal and wonder how the pioneers could have missed the message! But as it has happened in Christ's day and in 1888, should we think that we are going to be any different?
"After the message of warning was given, a confederacy was formed that would not receive the message. They kept themselves barricaded, fearing that if they should evidence that they did receive light there was a trapdoor ready to let them through into some dangerous pit. The richest treasures of truth were opened before them. Every mind needed the jewels and gems that were revealed, but by confederating together they were deceived and their stakes were set fast" (1888 826.3).
In the message to Laodicea, Christ warns us not to get our hopes up. Laodicea thinks that they are "in need of nothing." And when Laodicea gives way to the 10-Virgins: half of them are lost. WHY? They do not see their need! They do not avail themselves of the eyesalve that they may see.
"Truth is progressive; and those who are preparing for the last great day will go forward in accordance with the accumulated light which shines upon them from the prophecies and from the lessons of Christ and the apostles. No one will be condemned in the Day of Judgment because of a lack of knowledge which he never had an opportunity to obtain. The light which never shone upon him will never be his darkness. The truth which God’s messengers have presented by pen and by voice, the treasures of the word of God which they have opened to the people, the light which has penetrated the darkened chambers of the mind, will, if rejected, be witnesses against them in the last great day. The testimony which will come with condemning power upon the sinner, and which will close his mouth before God and testify of his guilt, is the fact that he saw the light, but for various reasons in harmony with the carnal heart, would not receive it. He would not receive the truth that was given to save him. The greater the light, the greater the obligations…" (RH, January 5, 1886 par. 6).
I intended to stop with that quote. But the prophecy of Daniel points out 4-kings which shall arise from the earth and since the Spirit of Prophecy states that prophecy should be viewed in conjunctions with Lessons of Christ? Consider how Daniel's prophecy and the lessons of Christ go hand in hand
Remember the parables of Christ: especially the 10-virgins and the parable of the 11th hour?
Jesus said the Bridegroom comes at midnight. That is 12:00
Jesus said in the 11th hour, which is 11:00 - the hour before midnight, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. That was written in Greek. The alpha shall be last and the omega shall be first. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Who then is He speaking of?
And what is an alpha and an omega? I worked with a Greek woman, who explained it to me: an alpha is an A and an omega is an upside-down horseshoe which can also be written as a W.
So in the 11th hour the first (A alpha) shall be last and the last (W omega) shall be first.
Knowing that America is to play an important role in endtime Bible prophecy, it has not escaped my attention that the omega alpha sequencing has occurred in the names of America's last 4 Presidents:
Ronald Wilson Reagan A-WA
George Herbert Walker Bush WA
William Jefferson Clinton WA
George Walker Bush WA
Since the WA sequencing is an identifying feature that Christ linked to the 11th hour and the Bridegroom comes at the 12th hour; and since America is "the last power that is to wage war against the church" it behooves us to leave politics to the politicians and to study the word of God with all earnestness that we will not be among the 5-Virgins that ARE unprepared.
Prayerfully study to show yourselves approved unto God and He will take care of the rest.
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His child Henry
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#312614 - 2009-12-23 21:33:55
Re: New book
[Re: hch]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-11-24
Posts: 618
Loc: Reno, NV
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HI Steve and all,
In answer to your question: no you are not correct. And in this format it is not possible to address every point raised in your note. That would take a book (it took 14-years to write it, so I won't attempt that here and now). And you raise some interesting questions and voice some real doubts that need to be settled in order to understand the meaning of Daniel that was shut-up until the time of the end.
What does the Bible say?
Daniel 7:17 is a great case in point.
"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."
Do you propose that God is confused? Or perhaps the pioneers knew everything about Bible prophecy that there is to know?
In Daniel 7's vision, did Daniel see 4-beasts arise from the earth or sea?
What does the Bible say?
"And four great beasts came up from the sea" (v. 3)
We know that God gathered the waters and called them seas (Genesis). And waters are defined in Revelation 17:15.
Why did Heaven's interpreter change the location from which the 4-beasts arise: from sea to earth in the interpretation (7:17)?
Since we know that the 4-beasts depict the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome: why did Heaven interpreter tell Daniel that the interpretation of the vision pertains to 4-kings instead of 4-kingdoms? That he specifically stated are to arise from the EARTH.
The 4-kingdoms were understood back in the 2nd century AD by Hippolitus of Rome. The 4-kingdoms sealed the authenticity of Daniel's prophecy. They arose as God had revealed to Daniel that they would arise, but their meaning was not "shut-up" OR "closed-up" (Daniel 12:4 & 9)until the time of the end that EGW clearly identifies as beginning in 1798.
And why is the identity of the 4th beast changed in the interpretation? Daniel saw the 4th beast with "iron teeth" (v. 7) BUT in the interpretation, he is identified as also having "brass nails"
"Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass" (v. 19).
Clearly the interpretation is changing facts set forth in the vision and expanding its endtime meaning. Kingdoms that are identified from Bible study and history are changed to kings in the endtime when Daniel is to beopened. The location from which they arise is changed in the interpretation from sea to earth. And the description of the 4th beast is changed form simply having iron teeth to also having brass nails.
Steve, superficial Bible study won't cut it.
"The evidence of the soon coming of Christ is right upon us, and many of us are asleep. We do not half gather up the important truths that are for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. If we did receive and believe the Word of God, we should be farther in advance spiritually than we are today. … We should fear to skim the surface of the Word of God. … We must sink the shaft deeper in the mines of truth." (3 1SAT 290.2)
So what is the truth of the 4-beast? Is he a kingdom or a king that shall arise from the earth?
Revelation 13 uses the same symbolism: SEA, LEOPARD, BEAR, LION, and EARTH. But in Daniel when the same symbols are encountered: SEA, LION, BEAR, LEOPARD, and EARTH; the earth is explained away as NOT BEING SYMBOLIC; but as depicting the nations of the earth or some such thing? Is that correct Bible exegesis?
Through that error of reinterpreting the earth in Daniel as literal rather than symbolic, it would appear that the sea in the vision is being defined as the literal earth. The symbolic sea is not the literal earth. They are different and Heaven is not making two different symbols to have the same meaning.
"The truth of God is progressive; it is always onward, going from strength to a greater strength, from light to a greater light. We have every reason to believe that the Lord will send us increased truth, for a great work is yet to be done. In our knowledge of truth, there is first a beginning in our understanding of it, then a progression, then completion…. Much has been lost because our ministers and people have concluded that we have had all the truth essential for us as a people; but such a conclusion is erroneous and in harmony with the deceptions of Satan; for truth will be constantly unfolding"
(ST, May 26, 1890 par. 2).
As I mentioned above, I'm not going to write the book "Put-Out The Light" here and now. Some will never look at the facts. They will embrace the teachings that they love, attempt to explain away every ray of light that they have not encountered previously, offer assumptions, and misstatements, and all sorts of opinions without looking at the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy from a perspective apart from that which they have been taught. We encounter this problem when we try to point out our peculiar truths to people of other denominations, should we be surprised when we encounter that problem with the saints that have the truth? We lament the fact that the Jews would not accept Christ for the most part. We study 1888 with zeal and wonder how the pioneers could have missed the message! But as it has happened in Christ's day and in 1888, should we think that we are going to be any different?
"After the message of warning was given, a confederacy was formed that would not receive the message. They kept themselves barricaded, fearing that if they should evidence that they did receive light there was a trapdoor ready to let them through into some dangerous pit. The richest treasures of truth were opened before them. Every mind needed the jewels and gems that were revealed, but by confederating together they were deceived and their stakes were set fast" (1888 826.3).
In the message to Laodicea, Christ warns us not to get our hopes up. Laodicea thinks that they are "in need of nothing." And when Laodicea gives way to the 10-Virgins: half of them are lost. WHY? They do not see their need! They do not avail themselves of the eyesalve that they may see.
"Truth is progressive; and those who are preparing for the last great day will go forward in accordance with the accumulated light which shines upon them from the prophecies and from the lessons of Christ and the apostles. No one will be condemned in the Day of Judgment because of a lack of knowledge which he never had an opportunity to obtain. The light which never shone upon him will never be his darkness. The truth which God’s messengers have presented by pen and by voice, the treasures of the word of God which they have opened to the people, the light which has penetrated the darkened chambers of the mind, will, if rejected, be witnesses against them in the last great day. The testimony which will come with condemning power upon the sinner, and which will close his mouth before God and testify of his guilt, is the fact that he saw the light, but for various reasons in harmony with the carnal heart, would not receive it. He would not receive the truth that was given to save him. The greater the light, the greater the obligations…" (RH, January 5, 1886 par. 6).
I intended to stop with that quote. But the prophecy of Daniel points out 4-kings which shall arise from the earth and since the Spirit of Prophecy states that prophecy should be viewed in conjunctions with Lessons of Christ? Consider how Daniel's prophecy and the lessons of Christ go hand in hand
Remember the parables of Christ: especially the 10-virgins and the parable of the 11th hour?
Jesus said the Bridegroom comes at midnight. That is 12:00
Jesus said in the 11th hour, which is 11:00 - the hour before midnight, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. That was written in Greek. The alpha shall be last and the omega shall be first. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Who then is He speaking of?
And what is an alpha and an omega? I worked with a Greek woman, who explained it to me: an alpha is an A and an omega is an upside-down horseshoe which can also be written as a W.
So in the 11th hour the first (A alpha) shall be last and the last (W omega) shall be first.
Knowing that America is to play an important role in endtime Bible prophecy, it has not escaped my attention that the omega alpha sequencing has occurred in the names of America's last 4 Presidents:
Ronald Wilson Reagan A-WA
George Herbert Walker Bush WA
William Jefferson Clinton WA
George Walker Bush WA
Since the WA sequencing is an identifying feature that Christ linked to the 11th hour and the Bridegroom comes at the 12th hour; and since America is "the last power that is to wage war against the church" it behooves us to leave politics to the politicians and to study the word of God with all earnestness that we will not be among the 5-Virgins that ARE unprepared.
Prayerfully study to show yourselves approved unto God and He will take care of the rest.
First of all I don't need a lesson from you in: Steve, superficial Bible study won't cut it.Neither will wild prophetic assumptions. Secondly, your wild theories will join in the trash can with the rest of everything like it. Anyone can take initials, nunbers galore and twist everything in sight to just about any conclusion. No one will buy this "interpretation" unless they are on some serious drugs. Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Jer 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall you mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for you have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Ghost.
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
The gravity of deliberately changing the meaning of God's word cannot be overemphasized. Psalm 138 equates the sacredness of God's Word with His holy name: "Thou hast magnified Thy word according to all Thy name." Deuteronomy 4:2 says, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it." Proverbs 30:5, 6 reiterates this point: "Every word of God is pure.Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Since God's Word is pure and truth,2 any changes to His Word will ultimately change the truth of God into a lie, with disastrous consequences.
Ye shall not add unto the word which I
command you, neither shall ye diminish
ought from it, that ye may keep the
commandments of the LORD your God
which I command you.” Deuteronomy 4:2
_________________________
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#312786 - 2009-12-24 08:56:59
Re: New book
[Re: Steve Billiter]
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Broke the 400 mark
Registered: 2009-12-21
Posts: 607
Loc: Collegedale TN
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Steve,
I read you note with interest and amazement. Are you doing the very thing that you accuse me of? Are you teaching "wild theories" when you refuse to move from light unto light? It was truth that Cain should sacrifice a lamb to God. Is it truth that we should sacrifice lambs today? Truth is progressive. Be cautious lest one becomes an accuser of the brethren.
"The Lord in his dealings with Israel always magnified his law before them, and promised them rich blessings if they would keep his precepts. And when he permitted their enemies to triumph over them, it was because he wanted them to draw nigh unto him, and find in him their friend and refuge. Their ingratitude and rebellion; their contempt of God’s restrictions and reproofs; their persecution of those whom God sent to save them from utter degradation and ruin; their relapse into idolatry; their hardness and impenitence of heart in following a course Satan chose for them, rather than the way of obedience in the path of truth and true holiness, brought misery upon themselves" (ST, October 15, 1896 par. 7).
Did Jesus say that old truth is the only truth? See Matthew 13
51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
And the wise man gives us good counsel in Proverbs 4:
14Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.
15Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.
16For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.
17For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.
18But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
19The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
20My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
"The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witness in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days, they will explain themselves" (KC 105.2).
"Those who become confused in their understanding of the Word ... will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist. There is no time for us to assimilate with the world. Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood; they interpret each other. They give to the world truths which everyone should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days, they will explain themselves" (PH068 15.1).
drop me a note at loudcry.2007@gmail.com if you would like a free copy of the e-book Joy in Jesus (Steps to Christ in modern English). I am giving them away as Christmas gifts to anyone who requests one.
_________________________
His child Henry
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