To all:

Just to put my $0.02 in on this conversation; I tend to believe that we cannot completely know objective reality in a corporate milleu, because objective reality is diverse among individuals. However, we can know certain objective realities on an individual basis, and by faith.

I know that this argument does not fit into any particular philosophical construct. It is simply my belief.

Love, intimacy with God....is synonymous with love for (ALL) others...AS YOURSELF.
In the relational template given us
...love ME <GOD>
and THEM <any other, stranger/neighbor/brother/vagrant etc>
AS YOURSELF....<oops, gotta love self too? how?>

Thats ALL of Jesus ministry in toto;
single creed, only doctrine, always teaching....
"how to love (ALL)"

...oh how we veer when we make it anything else...

Right on! HeartSeeker!

How? Not with the ego, I believe; but find the christ within and feel the love for you that is always there; and identify as yourSELF not the ego but relalize that you are one with the christ within. That is the real you. As Paul said we have the mind of Christ. Being one with Him we also have his heart. You are not your ego; thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc.

The modern mind is into the institutionalized church. The post-modern mind is into the spiritual church. The modern mind wants to sit in church and be entertained. The post-modern mind wants to participate, and be involved. I think JESUS was a post-modern, and I think HE wants us to be that way too.

The definition...the meaning of "loving yourself"...is obviously the pivotal crux.
Although the language of the heart is expressed in "emotion", tis true that "feelings"
have naught to do with "love" either. Ego is a construct, an imposter; the true self is not EGO
the true definition of Love? I will die on a Roman tree to show my love, even if you kill me.
AND I WILL LOVE YOU NO LESS!

One cannot say "they love God" whom they can neither touch, see, or directly serve...
until they love themselves. Nor can we love any other until then.
And the real irony? If you love one even a bit less....(judge not? God is no respecter...)
if you truly have even a mite of bitterness, hatred, unforgiveness...
towards anyone, or group...or God...
then you cannot "love with all your being".
You can love God no more than the one you love the least.
Whatsoever ye did to these, the least of them...you did to ME>...

and HE says....I love YOU, even as I Love my Son JESUS.
wow....

I have found the moment we begin to rate our "love" then ego is manifesting. I have found that we can trust in the process of letting go without judging the quality of our love. For me, this type of thinking becomes a Red Herring.

Ego is based on fear and any type of thinking that promotes comparison as a means of determining value will produce fear.

The 'love' i'm thinking of is not prouduced by the ego, nor needfully directed toward it. This frees the person from the impossible obligation and guilt-produced feeling that they must conjure-up this love themselves. We can take no credit for it. We just find it within. It is always there.
'Letting go' may be synonomous. As Jung wrote: the "Christ within" is a symbol of the Self and the Self is the source of that love, which also directs its care/love toward the Christ within others.

It takes a whole heap of anxiety off the mind, looking at it this way.

Did I put that clearly?

dab

You done that real good,






g

My point exactly.



This is a subtle point, but I think it demonstrates the subtle ways in which our language betrays our connection with ego based conditioning. I agree that we find it within because that is what I experience.

The rub is, at least for me, when I bring in the language of "taking credit" or even "not taking credit" there is a shift of my attention away from simply finding it within.

"I will die on a Roman tree to show my love, even if you kill me.
AND I WILL LOVE YOU NO LESS!"

Now I know you didn't write this, but I don't find this concept all that helpful because it reduces love to a rather dramatic manipulation. If love exists simply because its already there, this seems to be somewhat of a distraction designed to compare us with God. Does god operate on ego in that he needs to continually remind us that we are inferior lovers?

I see no use in setting up a scale of love and comparing ourselves with it.

I find it far more useful to be who I am. Trying to be like some arbitrary standard of "God" or even comparing ourselves to some impossible standard sets up all kinds of mental gymnastics that tend to teach us to lie to ourselves.

What I focus on is what feels true and, at least to me, any kind of judgment tends to hide that from me.