#242988 - 2009-05-13 19:49:10
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: 'nuff sed]
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Registered: 2000-04-01
Posts: 1089
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And why should we want to...If we are who we think we are? Yet, many do. They must have some reason.
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#243035 - 2009-05-14 05:06:59
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: timewarp]
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Registered: 2009-02-18
Posts: 4605
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Hello :-)
Question for the op.
You say that you do not accept the position of Ellen White on the Abyss.
So...
Where do you think the Abyss is and what do you think the Abyss is?
Mark
_________________________
The best wisdom is always second hand...
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#243107 - 2009-05-14 11:28:47
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: Twilight]
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Registered: 2009-05-01
Posts: 1035
Loc: Lancaster, MA
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The real literal abyss, also outer darkness, is anywhere outside of time and space. Sheol, the pit, the grave, and the wilderness all represent the abyss or outer darkness. The bottomless pit means no resurrection, for a long time anyway. I have noticed that sister White refers to the way of the world as the abyss. Her visions teach that we only have one way to the holy city. They teach that we must get off the path we are on, up the winding ever narrowing road up the side of the mountain with the abyss to one side, and get on the straight and narrow path, following Jesus to the holy city, which we can see in the distance.
Traveling the winding, ever narrowing road, on which we cannot see Jesus or the holy city, is following Moses. Traveling the straight and narrow path is following Jesus. There is a big difference, but the abyss of this world awaits all who fall off either.
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#243173 - 2009-05-14 15:17:48
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: Twilight]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 2008-02-23
Posts: 32
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The word "deep" translates to the Greek word "abussos" (Strongs #12), which is the same word as "bottomless pit" in Rev.20, no where in this definition of "abussos" is the surface of the earth mentioned! Jesus had also sent other fallen angels there, to be bound until the judgement of the great day. (Jude 6; 2nd Peter 2:4). At the 5th angel sounding in Rev.9:1-11, this bottomless pit is opened and something evil is released. Abussos: In classical Greek the word is always an adjective, and is used (1) literally, "very deep," "bottomless"; (2) figuratively, "unfathomable," "boundless." "Abyss" does not occur in the King James Version, but the Revised Version so transliterates abussos in each case. The King James Version renders the Greek by "the deep" in two passages (Luke 8:31; Rom.10:7). In Revelation the King James Version renders by "the bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3). In the Septuagint abussos is the rendering of the Hebrew word tehom. According to primitive Semitic cosmogony, the earth was supposed to rest on a vast body of water which was the source of all springs of waters and rivers (Gen. 1:2; Deut. 8:7; Psa. 24:2; 136:6) This subterranean ocean is sometimes descibed as "the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4; Deut 5:8). . According to Job 41:32 tehom is the home of the leviathan, in which he plows his hoary path of foam. The Septuagint never uses abussos as a rendering of Sheol (Sheol = Hades) and probably tehom never meant the "abode of the dead" which was the ordinary meaning of Sheol. In Psalms 71:20 tehom is used figuratively, and denotes "many and sore troubles" through which the psalmist has passed (compare Jonah 2:5). But in the New Testament the word abussos means the "abode of demons" In Luke 8:31 the King James Version renders "into the deep" (Weymouth and The Twentieth Century New Testament = "into the bottomless pit"). The demons do not wish to be sent to their place of punishment before their destined time. Mark simply says "out of the country" (5:10). In Romans 10:7 the word is equivalent to Hades, the abode of the dead. In Revelation (where the King James Version renders invariably "the bottomless pit") abussos denotes the abode of evil spirits, but not the place of final punishment; it is therefore to be distinguished from the "lake of fire and brimstone" where the beast and the false prophet are, and into which the devil is to be finally cast (Rev. 19:20; 20:10).
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#243178 - 2009-05-14 15:39:50
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: truth seeker]
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Registered: 2009-02-18
Posts: 4605
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The word "deep" translates to the Greek word "abussos" (Strongs #12), which is the same word as "bottomless pit" in Rev.20, no where in this definition of "abussos" is the surface of the earth mentioned! Jesus had also sent other fallen angels there, to be bound until the judgement of the great day. (Jude 6; 2nd Peter 2:4). At the 5th angel sounding in Rev.9:1-11, this bottomless pit is opened and something evil is released. Abussos: In classical Greek the word is always an adjective, and is used (1) literally, "very deep," "bottomless"; (2) figuratively, "unfathomable," "boundless." "Abyss" does not occur in the King James Version, but the Revised Version so transliterates abussos in each case. The King James Version renders the Greek by "the deep" in two passages (Luke 8:31; Rom.10:7). In Revelation the King James Version renders by "the bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3). In the Septuagint abussos is the rendering of the Hebrew word tehom. According to primitive Semitic cosmogony, the earth was supposed to rest on a vast body of water which was the source of all springs of waters and rivers (Gen. 1:2; Deut. 8:7; Psa. 24:2; 136:6) This subterranean ocean is sometimes descibed as "the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4; Deut 5:8). . According to Job 41:32 tehom is the home of the leviathan, in which he plows his hoary path of foam. The Septuagint never uses abussos as a rendering of Sheol (Sheol = Hades) and probably tehom never meant the "abode of the dead" which was the ordinary meaning of Sheol. In Psalms 71:20 tehom is used figuratively, and denotes "many and sore troubles" through which the psalmist has passed (compare Jonah 2:5). But in the New Testament the word abussos means the "abode of demons" In Luke 8:31 the King James Version renders "into the deep" (Weymouth and The Twentieth Century New Testament = "into the bottomless pit"). The demons do not wish to be sent to their place of punishment before their destined time. Mark simply says "out of the country" (5:10). In Romans 10:7 the word is equivalent to Hades, the abode of the dead. In Revelation (where the King James Version renders invariably "the bottomless pit") abussos denotes the abode of evil spirits, but not the place of final punishment; it is therefore to be distinguished from the "lake of fire and brimstone" where the beast and the false prophet are, and into which the devil is to be finally cast (Rev. 19:20; 20:10). Thank you for taking the time to answer. :-) If you do not mind me politely pointing, I notice you did not answer the question. What and where do you think the Abyss is? Mark
_________________________
The best wisdom is always second hand...
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#243415 - 2009-05-15 10:38:38
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: Twilight]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 2008-02-23
Posts: 32
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I believe that the Abyss is a underworld prison for certain fallen angels and for the souls of the lost. I also believe that demons and Satan are aware of the restriction that is placed upon them in this prison and utterly dread confinement there.(see Luke 8:30-31) I also believe from 1st Peter 3:19-20 that Jesus went there between the time of His Death and Resurrection....19-By which also He went (between the time of His Death and Resurrection) and preached unto the spirits in prison (does not refer to humans, but rather to fallen Angels; humans are never refered to in this particular manner; these were probably the fallen Angels who tried to corrupt the human race by co-habitating with woman [2nd Peter 2:4 ; Jude Vss. 6-7]; these fallen Angels are still locked up in this underworld prison). 20-Which sometime (in times past) were dis-obedient (this was shortly before the flood) when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah (refers to this eruption of fallen Angels with woman taking place at the time of Noah; this was probably a hundred or so years before the flood) while the Ark was a preparing (these fallen Angels were commiting this particular sin while the Ark was being made ready, however long it took; Scripture doesn't say!) wherein few, that is,eight souls were svaed by water. In Revelation 9:1-11 Satan is allowed to release the demons that have been locked up in the bottomless pit that they may go out and torment 4" And it was commanded to them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;but only those men which have not the Seal of God in their foreheads". So in a nut shell I believe that the Abyss is a holding place for demons and the lost souls and will be the final holding prison for Satan for the 1000 year period in Revelation 20, after which the Great White Throne Judgement will occur. As far as where the Abyss is, I would be speculating, but I do think it is accessible from the surface of the earth, but I dont believe it is the surface of the earth. John
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#243480 - 2009-05-15 13:52:22
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: truth seeker]
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Registered: 2009-02-18
Posts: 4605
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Hello John :-)
I have three questions:
1. Is this holding place in existance now in your view?
2. Do you have any scriptural evidence (clear scripture) that suggests such a place exists?
3. What is the function of this place?
God bless,
Mark
_________________________
The best wisdom is always second hand...
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#243691 - 2009-05-16 10:34:16
Re: Large collection of SDA books for sale!
[Re: Twilight]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 2008-02-23
Posts: 32
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Hello Mark: 1- From Scripture it is clear, The Abyss was in existence during the event that happened in Luke 8:31 and it still in existence in Revelation 20:3, so the answer to your question is clearly yes and can be verified in God's Word. 2- To study the Bible thoroughly always remember to look at the original Hebrew and Greek words, the easiest way to do that is by using a concordance. Heres an excellent Bible web site that also has a Vine's Dictionary and a Thayers Lexicon which are two other good study tools to use! http://www.blueletterbible.org Strong's Number G12 matches the Greek ἄβυσσος (abyssos), which occurs 9 times in 9 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV Page 1 / 1 (Luk 8:31 - Rev 20:3) This should answer your second question http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G12&t=KJV 3- Your third question can only be answered correctly by your Creator, so I feel no need to speculate. Take care and God bless. John.
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