John317, you gave some very good answers. Let me just add this statement by Ellen G. White found in her book, Acts of the Apostles, page 11: "From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth." This is the concept of "church" I have always used.

The New Testament definition of church, the ekklesia, or "called-out ones," is not the whole scope of the concept of church. Isaiah belonged to God's church. So did Moses, So did Abraham. So did Enoch. So did Adam. This appears to be the definition of church God is giving us in Revelation 12 with the symbol of the woman.

In Bible prophecy, to say someone or something is in heaven is to say they are in grace, working in harmony with the will of God. If something is said to fall from heaven, it suggests apostasy, falling from grace. And we see in the prophecy of the third trumpet, that the effects of the messenger (angel) that fell from heaven was dire, causing the "waters" to become bitter, and many died as a result.

The moon on which the woman stands is "God's faithful witness in heaven" (Psalms 89:37)--the Word of God, and the law of God and sound doctrines which it presents. It is on this basis that the church of all ages stands.

The sun is the gospel of the imputed righteousness of Christ (see Malachi 4:2) which clothes the saints in Christ's righteousness, hence the woman in Rev. 12:1 is said to be "clothed" by the sun.

No, you have that all wrong Ron. The sun has it's own light or glory as does God. The moon reflects the suns light or glory as what the Kingdom of Heaven is supposed to do. Therefore, the Woman is standing on the Kingdom of Heaven. So she can't be any church, she is the Spirit of the KOH--the SDA church. There isn't anything anywhere in the words of Jesus about any so called church. The 7 messages to the Kingdom of Heaven found in Rev. 2 and 3 are not churches, but to the 'rock cut out w/o hands--the last Kingdom set up by God in 1843.

Again, your wicks need to be cut off first before you will be able to see the path to real truth. Enjoy!

I'm using "church" in the sense of the collective body of believers in the Creator God, Yahweh, or Jehovah, and in Christ. It's called many things in the Bible, a partial list of which follows:

Assembly of the Saints (Ps. 89: 7); Assembly of the Upright (Ps. 111: 1); Body of Christ (Eph. 1: 22); Branch of God's Planting (Is. 60: 21); Bride of Christ (Rev. 21: 9); Congregation of saints (Ps. 149: 1); Congregation of the Lord's poor (Ps. 74: 19); Flock of God (Ez. 34: 15; 1 Peter 5: 2); Fold of Christ (John 10: 16); General Assembly of the First-born (Heb. 12: 23); God's Heritage (Joel 3: 2; 1 Peter 5: 3); Holy Mountain (Zech. 8: 3); House of Christ (Heb. 3: 6); Household of God (Eph. 2: 19); Inheritance (Ps. 28: 9; Is. 19: 25); King's Daughter (Ps. 45: 13); Kingdom of God (Matt. 6: 33; 12: 28; 19: 24; 21: 31); Kingdom of heaven (Matt. 3: 2; 4: 17); His Kingdom (Ps. 103: 19; 145: 12); My kingdom (John 18: 36); Thy kingdom (Ps. 45: 6); Lamb's bride (Rev. 22: 17); Lot of God's inheritance (Deut. 32: 9); Mount (Heb. 12: 22); Spiritual House (1 Peter 2: 5); Pleasant portion (Jer. 12: 10), etc.

As you can see, the Bible often refers to God's church without using the word "church."

"From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth." AA, page 11.

I agree with Ron: "The New Testament definition of church, the ekklesia, or 'called-out ones,' is not the whole scope of the concept of church. Isaiah belonged to God's church. So did Moses, So did Abraham. So did Enoch. So did Adam. This appears to be the definition of church God is giving us in Revelation 12 with the symbol of the woman."

These are the words of Jesus:

Rev 2:1 ¶ Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Rev 2:8 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write;

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ..........And so on.

I see what you mean Dr Rich, There's no way Jesus could have been talking about churches. What was I thinking?

The term 'church' is actually the word 'assembly', and has a different flavor than what is commonly used today as the meaning of church. Today we use the word 'church' to mean an organized body of believers, as in specific denominations (Catholic, SDA, Baptist, etc.). The word in Greek is Strong's 1577- ekklesia: which means 'a calling out', a 'congregation', an 'assembly', and lastly a 'church'.

The Jerusalem 'ekklesia' was called 'The Way'. The Greek word for Synagoge is 4864 sunagoge-which means an assemblage of people. It does not speak to the organization of believers into separate units.

It was my understanding in reading what you wrote, Richard, that you were speaking of the organized religion type of church. That is why I stated the Jesus did not come to start an organized church based on a religion. Jesus said two things that relate directly to this;

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matt.15:24.

For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” John 18:9-10.

I see in these verses (an others) that what Jesus saw as His purpose in coming to earth is vastly different than what is being taught as His purpose by today's Christianity.

If Jesus had come to start a church (as defined above) then He did not make that purpose plain to any of His eyewitness disciples, and they are the ones that I use as my primary source as to what Jesus actually said and did while on earth.

Sorry for any confusion.

1 Cor. 12:5 lists administrations as one of the gifts of the Spirit placed within the church. Thus church administrations or organizations are not the church, but are within the church as servants of the church. This is a very important distinction to remember when we consider what it means to be loyal to and supportive of the church. The church is what created the administrations that serve it, and not vice-versa. The church has the right and indeed the duty to require that the administration remain faithful to its duty. And if the administration has become entrenched in apostasy, God's faithful people can withdraw and establish a new administration, and this does not constitute a real change of identity for the church.

Concerning the present multiplicity of churches or denominations, Jesus said: "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16; NKJV)

Jesus said this when some people might think that only the Jewish nation was God's church at that time. Jesus said that even then He had "other folds."

Thanks, Ron, for reminding me about the function of administrators in the church. Very interesting. But that still isn't my point.

Jesus came to save the Kingdom of Heaven, which at that time was literal Israel. Jesus was going to have to die for the forgiven sins of the Kingdom of Heaven anyway. On the life road, where Jesus would have been crowned and anointed King of Israel and where He would be seated on the throne of David He would first still have had to die. His death was a forgone conclusion if He was to pay the penalty for the disobedience of Adam and Eve who were the father and mother of the Kingdom.

As is happened Israel chose the death road prophecies. So instead of fulfilling the life road prophecies and coming as a King and entering the Temple through the eastern gate and resting His feet in the Most Holy Place in the Temple, and being executed on the Alter of Sacrifice in the outer court of the Temple in honor and glory Jesus came to fulfill the death road prophecies. In these prophecies He would be born as a baby, be tempted in the wilderness by Satan, be an itinerant preacher, healing the sick, raising the dead and preaching the Kingdom of God. He would be killed in dishonor by those who he came to save. He would resurrect Himself after 3 days and 3 nights, and ascend to His Father thereby postponing the transfer of the kingdom of this world to the Kingdom of Heaven until more than 2000 years had past.

At that time the Kingdom of Heaven will not be Israel but will be like ten bridesmaids that went out to meet the Bridegroom, but He did not come when they expected Him to come and they ALL went to sleep. You know the prophecy in Matt. 25:1-13. It is that Kingdom that will triumph over the kingdoms of the world. According to the prophecy those bridesmaids are not a church but are the forerunners of a Kingdom that will be an everlasting Kingdom (Dan.2:45). It is that Kingdom that will smash the feet and the ten toes of the image and crush the kingdoms of the world. That group of people are the SDA's.

It is not a church that wins through to the end, but a Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven, us.

Jesus said: "For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21b; NKJV)

I think that the kingdom of God and the church are synonyms.

Faithful souls = the church
Faithful souls = the Kingdom of God/Heaven
Therefore the church = the Kingdom of God/Heaven

Yes, I see what you mean.

My view is that since Jesus came to save the Kingdom of Heaven then everyone will need to be in the Kingdom to be saved (John3:3,5). If that is the case then the church (defined by you as all Christians) will need to search for and find the Kingdom and then join it; come into the sheep fold through the door of Jesus Christ. Just because someone calls themselves 'Christian' does not automatically place them into the Kingdom of Heaven. Please define 'faithful souls'.

Over to you.